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How Do You Negotiate?
Sandy Hein • 2023-03-07
Dylan Carnahan:Welcome to Simple Questions Podcast. This is your host, Dylan Carnahan. You're listening to Boots on the Ground by Chris Hudson. Chris Hudson is a Kansas City native, classical guitarist, guitarist, musician, composer, multi-instrumentalist, singer-songwriter, teacher, and visual artist. He's also a founding member of two bands, Goalie Washer and the Bard Owls. The question for this episode is, how do you negotiate? You will learn in this episode how to mentally approach a negotiation, effective negotiation techniques, and when to walk away from a negotiation. Our guest is a former police detective that handled hostage negotiations and investigated adult sex crimes. Is the author of two books, Keeping You and Your Family Safe in Today's Hectic World, and Why Aren't We Shaming Offenders Instead of Blaming Victims? Lastly, is a negotiation instructor with The Black Swan Group, which solves business communication problems with hostage negotiation strategies. I introduce to you Sandy Hein. This podcast episode is all about negotiation. And in thinking back in time, one of the first negotiations that I encountered was the infamous approaching my parents to see if I could spend the night at Harrison's or if Harrison could come over to spend the night. That's kind of the first negotiation. I just remember like, when do you ask them? You got a time at right? How are you gonna pitch it? Things of that nature. And I didn't really think of it as a negotiation. It was just kind of like a ploy to get what you wanted, if you will. And it wasn't until later in life, I kind of understood the more formal concept of negotiation. And that kind of took frame for me when I read the book Never Split the Difference by Chris Fox. And at the time, Sandy, I was working at a brewery and I was working behind the bar as a beer tender. And I read this book and I was like, I'm in here with a high volume of social interactions. And so I remember, I typically am a little selfish and I just self-indulge in conversations. So I had a gentleman, he walked in and he had a neon orange shirt, he had dirt on it, kind of paint and stuff. And he sat down at this craft brewery, Red Crow Brewing Company, and we brew everything in-house. So he walks in, takes a seat, and he asks, do you have Coors Light? I go, no, we don't. And then he goes, do you have Bud Light? I go, no, we don't. And then I launch into my spiel that I've prepared 100 times, I go, you'll see all the beers we brew in-house right there, the brewery is just right over there. And then he said, I say, our Kansas Lauder Loretta is the closest thing we have to Bud Light. He said, I'll take one of those, I pour one up, plop it down right in front of him. And then he goes, you look really young, are you in college? And I go, yeah, I am. He goes, well, I was too stupid for that. And immediately, my first thought is like, uh, this is awkward. And the second thing is like, okay. Like, so I, because of reading this, I said, well, what makes you think that? Which I normally wouldn't say, I normally just walk away. So he gets this conversation, and he talks about how he's a forklift driver, and he makes, you know, 60 grand a year. He's telling me all these things, and I'm like, I'm in college working at Craft Brewery, and you make like more money than I do. It's like what, you know, some of that effect. Anyway, we have this conversation, and he leaves me, it's a 6.25 for a beer, and he leaves me like a $4 tip. Said, well, maybe this negotiation stuff does work. And, uh, exactly. So reading this book, and I become familiarized with The Black Swan Group, which is obviously what you're a part of. So my whole journey of negotiation is rather informal, kind of retrospective, like thinking back on things and then, and then, you know, reading content and continuing your learning. So Sandy, can you tell us about your background and how you became interested in negotiation?
Sandy Hein:Well, I started in law enforcement, came out of college and went straight into the police academy, and learned very early on that as a woman in law enforcement back in 1989, I kind of had to be really good at a few different skills. So learning to listen was paramount, which is very key in the Black Swan Method. So can't listen, you can't react, you know, you have to pay attention. So I took to kind of listening more than I was talking and it went to my benefit. And so then in my career, when I realized, hey, you know what, I think I'm gonna go for this hostage negotiation scheme thing. That seems pretty cool. As I like talking, I like figuring out what's the right thing to say and what's not the right thing to say. I kind of like pushing people's buttons. So I thought, well, maybe I should rein that in a little and learn a little better how to communicate without always pushing someone's buttons. So I had taken a hostage negotiations course. We have to do training every year. We have to do so many different hours of training. So I chose that one because I thought, that's cool. And I don't want to do the same old class as I keep doing, right? So I took this hostage negotiations class and I learned a lot, but it was more, it wasn't a class that really taught me so much as much as it was showed me a lot of things that happened in the hostage negotiations world, which, you know, when you see that you go, oh, cool, that's what I want to do. So I put in for the team and then I went through the real training for the course. And I thought, holy cow, I can't believe people in general don't use these techniques in their everyday lives because it's a game changer. It's a game changer when you learn how to talk to somebody and ask them the right questions or give them the right subtle push in the right direction to get them to basically do what you want them to do. And, you know, we have different personality types in negotiation. I'm what they call an assertive, which people usually don't peg me that way because I'm friendly, because they think assertives are not friendly, but we are, we're friendly. But we're also kind of in your face, and we just kind of go unfiltered and say whatever comes to our mind. And so I came to look at this as sort of mental gymnastics and keeping my mind sharp and learning new ways to use the skills. And through doing that, I kind of got involved with Derek, who was my team commander, and he also was with the Black Swan Group. And he was friends with Chris, and they were working together. And he said, I think you'd be good for this. I think you have the right mind for this. Come over here and try this with us. And I said, absolutely. Best decision I ever made was to go to work for the Black Swan Group because I feel like I'm in my element. I feel like I finally found a home. Not that I didn't enjoy law enforcement, but using these skills now is a way of life.
Dylan Carnahan:So you go throughout your career and then you really, yeah, I think there's definitely something to be said, as far as influencing behavior. It's kind of, it's intangible, right? It's a little intangible. And so like you're saying having the ability to influence it and say those things that unlock new bits of information, where you can pick, read information off people and elicit responses, it's very enjoyable. And it sounds like you found an environment that wanted to cultivate that skillset.
Sandy Hein:Yes, absolutely. And as a hostage negotiator, I guess the difference from then to now is, when you're negotiating a scene, you're negotiating with a hostage taker or a lone barricaded subject, you feel like it's a lot more high-stake. You feel like if something goes wrong, is it gonna be my fault because I said the wrong thing, I did the wrong thing. And so you put a lot of pressure on yourself. I have found that I had to look at that a certain way when I was at the police department. I had to look at it as my job and I'm influencing and I'm doing the things that I'm supposed to be doing and trying to kind of say out of it personally, which is the better way to do it. I mean, we call it tactical empathy because it's very calibrated. It doesn't mean we like the person. It doesn't mean we agree with them. It doesn't mean anything positive off the bat. I mean, very few people that I dealt with in law enforcement that I had to use these skills on that I ever want to be friends with afterwards. I mean, nature of the beast, but we're not dealing with the best of the best of society when you're in law enforcement. So you have to learn how to use empathy to demonstrate understanding to that other side. People mistake it for sympathy all the time. You don't sympathize with people. When you sympathize with people, you're feeling what they feel. That just causes PTSD. So we don't need to go there. We just go with empathy where we are understanding their world so well that we could describe it to them and have them give us the famous, that's right.
Dylan Carnahan:That's extremely powerful because if you don't have that framework for understanding, everything else, you know what you're doing, but you don't understand it, right? So I want to kind of dive into that a little bit. And especially for someone uninitiated, so like you said, you're not talking to the most friendly, savory individuals, you know, as a detective or hostage negotiator. So, and even, you know, in the boardroom, I mean, you're having to talk to people that you don't necessarily like. So how do you mentally approach someone who thinks differently than you and you may be not even like?
Sandy Hein:Yeah, it's a mindset thing. So you have to have the right mindset when you go to the conversation. So one of the things we tell people all the time is stay curious and don't judge. And so if you go in, you're curious about why the other side is doing what they're doing, what makes them think the way they think. And if you look at that kind of as a puzzle to solve, then you can kind of push them in the direction that you want them to go or where you feel they need to go to kind of let whatever they're holding onto off their chest. So reading the room is what we always say. You know, listening with your eyes. It's hard to do as a hostage negotiator because we weren't face to face. We couldn't be face to face. So what we had to do was more listen with our ears to things happening in the background. Like if I'm doing, I mean, because this is audio, so you hear that in the background, what am I doing? I'm nervously tapping a pen on the table like, er, and so you get something from that. Or if you hear someone go, okay, something just happened there. I need to pay attention to that. So you key in on every little thing that you hear. When you're across from somebody and you can see their face, you key in on everything their face is doing. And you, yeah, exactly. I know no one else can see.
Dylan Carnahan:Grimacing.
Sandy Hein:Yes.
Dylan Carnahan:Furrowing the brow.
Sandy Hein:Yes.
Dylan Carnahan:Maybe a glance.
Sandy Hein:Exactly, and you take those dynamics and you use them to push the conversation forward. If I say something and you give me a look of confusion, I'm gonna say it seemed like something I just said confused you somehow. And then you're gonna explain to me how it confused you and then I'm gonna know where to go, the right direction to take to make it make sense for you. So a lot of it is just looking at the dynamics in front of you and not being afraid to call them out.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, that's a big component. Much as you said, I mean, there's some times that people will read the room, but they won't say anything.
Sandy Hein:And that's the whole thing because tactical empathy, the calibrated application of emotional intelligence is all about vocalizing what you feel using your intuition. So you take your intuition and you vocalize it. And the problem is everybody has intuition and they feel things that are going on, but they never vocalize them. And if they would learn to pay attention to that gut feeling that they have or that hair raising up on the back of their neck and put the words out there, that's how you're gonna get an in-depth conversation and you're gonna get a ton of information. And getting through that though is dealing with the fear of being wrong. Because fear is probably our dominating behavior. It's the dominating emotion because fear guides everyone. You're guided by your fear. Some people say you're guided by love, no, you're not. You're guided by the fear of not finding love or losing love. So it's fear, it's always fear. And if you have a fear of saying things to other people because you think you're saying something wrong, you're gonna hold back. And when you hold back, you lose a lot. So the thing that we try to teach people when we do training with the Black Swan Group is don't be afraid to take whatever your gut instinct is telling you and put that out there. If you're wrong, it doesn't matter. They'll correct you because one of our laws of negotiation gravity says the urge to correct is irresistible. And that's true. If you say something to someone, if you read that dynamic and you get it wrong, they're gonna say, no, it's not that exactly. It's this. As long as you don't get defensive when they correct you and you just take it as new information, you're in good shape. So you have to kind of moderate your behavior and stay curious about what's going on on the other side.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, that's powerful, right? Because a lot of times when someone corrects you, like, first off, you get defensive. Second off, your ego's immediately hurt. I think a lot of people, right? You're messing with my value proposition, like, and so I think you're saying it goes back to maintaining some level of dissonance and objectivity of saying, hey, I know collaborate towards whatever the goal is. And in order to do that, I need to have some self-awareness and maintain my emotional state. And we're gonna get some good information. Oh, you correct me. Instead of being upset, I should be thankful. Oh, well, now I know what you think, or now I know another piece of information.
Sandy Hein:Exactly. So you stay curious, don't get defensive, and understand that you actually learn more from making mistakes than you do from getting things right all the time. So when you're out there trying the skills, if you just throw caution to the wind and just use them whenever you can, that's how you're gonna learn the most, because they're gonna land or they're not gonna land. And if they don't land, it's okay, because they're very forgiving, and the person will correct you, and you'll just back off a second, and you'll try it again with new information.
Dylan Carnahan:I wanna take a step back, and when we look at the concept of negotiation, what are the main components of a negotiation? How is there, there's a beginning and end, I would assume, but what takes place in the middle? We're just very empathetic. How does that work?
Sandy Hein:Oh, it's funny that you say that, because that's probably the question we get more than any other, is I know I have to do a negotiation, and I know what I'm supposed to be going for, so I put a good label out there, and then I don't know where to go from there. Where do I go from there? You know, it does confuse people. So, first of all, people don't know they're in a negotiation half the time, and the most dangerous negotiation is the one that you don't know you're in. So if you just kind of, this probably isn't 100% accurate, but my feeling is if you always assume you're in some kind of a negotiation, you'll be better off. And if you always take the stance of trying to figure out what's going on in the mind of the other side, you'll always be better off. If you talk less than they talk more, you'll always be better off. So as far as when you go into a negotiation, if you want or need anything, or if the person you're talking to wants or needs anything, you're actually in a negotiation. It could be really, really small, could be really, really huge. My favorite story is the one with the website in the Starbucks, people say, share your secrets with us, and someone from Starbucks sent a cup in with a note attached to it that said, I give decaf to people who are mean to me. And that's when we say, you know, the scariest negotiation is the one you don't know you're in. And if you think that you have a high tolerance for caffeine, it's just because you're being a jerk when you go to order your coffee in the morning and you're getting decaf. So just understand that, can you negotiate at Starbucks? You can't negotiate price at Starbucks. And even that is iffy, because say you want an extra pump of something and you're nice, so they just give it to you for free. So in a way, can you negotiate price? Possibly, but what you're doing is you're negotiating by not being mean to your barista. Now people like to do business with people they like. People like to deal with people who are friendly. So if you're friendly, you're gonna get that coffee like you want it. If you're not, you're gonna get decaf. So it's always being mindful of where you are in the conversation and what's going on in the head of the person on the other side, because there's certain sequencing that you do. And when we do work with coaching clients who have a big negotiation coming up, we work on what we call sequencing. This is how you start out, then you go to this, then you go to this, then you go to this. And then the next thing we tell them is best laid battle plans never survive first contact with the enemy. So all that stuff that we just told you, you might as well just rip that crap up and throw it in the air and grab a piece, and that's where you'll start, because it's never gonna go the way you plan. And part of being successful is knowing that and being able to roll with the punches when it happens. That's part of preparation. So I know I've given you a lot, and I kind of see your head going, oh, God, what is this a lot of information?
Dylan Carnahan:No, that's the concept that your plan isn't always gonna work.
Sandy Hein:Oh, yeah.
Dylan Carnahan:It really highlights the need for your decision making to be very good, because you're gonna be in the moment, and you're gonna react, and you're gonna have to know how to handle that. And that highlights how important it is to have that mindset of empathy. And also, as you mentioned, you're saying, hey, let's not default to, oh, a negotiation is when I'm in a boardroom. No, let's default to, is this a negotiation? Anything else that indicates otherwise, then it's not, right?
Sandy Hein:Right, right.
Dylan Carnahan:So I wanna hit on, because there's gonna be some people, they're gonna be here and be like, Sandy, negotiation. I don't know. I'm looking at YouTube, I'm tired. I don't even know what a negotiation is. So I wanna get into some, so what are some examples of negotiations that an average person engages in? I know we mentioned Starbucks and that was an excellent one.
Sandy Hein:Yeah. So a lot of people that I coach these days are finding the negotiations that they have with people in their own family or household are the most prominent in their lives. And in fact, a blog post just came out on our website today that I wrote about using our skills to deal with personal relationships. So that's one that people can check out if they wanna understand how these can work for you in your day-to-day life. And I have more people come up and ask me when I go to a training about how do I handle my kids? How do I handle my kids? I don't know how to get through to my kids. And there are a lot of different things we can say about that. One is if they're anywhere between the ages of 12 and 18, don't bother asking them direct questions because one, they know everything. They don't need you to give them help or advice because they're at that age where they're all knowing. They're omnipotent. So don't ask them questions. They'll feel interrogated. They'll feel like you're trying to get information out of them. They're trying to find themselves in the world. They need their own space. So they feel like you're just being nosy. Instead, do what we tell everybody to do. Read the room. If you're at home and your teenager comes home from school and they come in slamming the door and throwing stuff around, you know the day probably didn't go very well. So they can just say, ah, well, seems like you may have a tough day. And they'll say, yeah. And then they'll go on about it because you didn't ask them a question. There's no question buzzword. No who, what, when, where, how, why. There's just seems like you had a rough day. And then they'll go off and talk to you about it. And it's funny because does this stuff work 100% of the time? No, it doesn't. 94% success rate in law enforcement. So 6% of the time, we had to call the snipers in to take care of the situation because 6% of the time, we weren't gonna get anywhere with the person inside. So when you're talking to your teenager, roughly 94% of the time, you might get a good response. 6% of the time, they're just gonna walk away from you. It's not 100%, but you can't let that discourage you. You try it a few times and then you let it go if they don't want to answer you. And so then the next day they come in a better mood. Oh, it seems like today was a better day. And then they'll say, yeah, you know, and then they'll start talking. They might go back and talk about the day before at that point because they won't feel threatened by it then. I had several, several coaching clients tell me that it changed their relationship, especially with their teenagers, that now they can't get them to shut up because now they're no longer using questions. They're labeling them non-judgmentally and just staying curious, and the kids are talking like crazy. And it's the same with spouses. The thing about spouses is though, I'll work with a coaching client and then the next time we have a session, they'll come back to me and they'll say, yeah, I started doing that. And my significant other said, knock that crap off. I know what you're doing. I said, so what was your response there? Oh, well, I just stopped doing it. I said, well, that's not the way to handle that. You just say, yeah, you know what? I'm trying this new thing. I'm trying to learn better to communicate. I wanna listen to you more. I want us to be able to communicate better. I said, then you tell them exactly what you're doing. These are the skills I'm using. Will you help me? Let's practice together. I've had more married couples say I saved their marriage just from that than I can even think about right now. It's just people don't know how to talk to each other. And so when you give them these magical things to say, they're like, wow, okay, that makes a huge difference. But dealing with people in your everyday lives. Now, I mean, I've talked about negotiations at the police department being high stakes, but when you're someone who is having issues with a kid in the house, that's a high stakes negotiation. You don't want that to go badly. So, you know, it's a little unsettling to realize I don't have good communication with my son or daughter. So how do I fix this? And there's an element of fear that comes in. So what happens is the fear of doing what we're trying to tell you to do to change keeps you from doing it because you feel awkward, it feels ridiculous, it's not normal. And so you back off of it, you go back to your old habits and you don't understand why nothing's changing. It's because you didn't do what I said earlier and kind of throw caution to the wind and just throw it out there and see if it works. It's like, you make spaghetti. You wanna see if the noodles are done, you take a couple of noodles, you throw them against the wall, if they stick, it's ready. It's just trial and error. It's just the way it is.
Dylan Carnahan:It seems like, it sounds like, it looks like you've mentioned labeling quite a few times in that.
Sandy Hein:Yes.
Dylan Carnahan:What does that mean to someone that doesn't know that? Yeah, what does that mean to someone that doesn't know?
Sandy Hein:This thing you just told me to do, can you tell me what it is for? It is, labeling is basically a verbal observation of what's going on with the other side. So it's, you're kind of reading what's going on with them, and then you're just putting it out there. So if they look angry, seems like something's got you a little frustrated, and you can change whether or not you're asking a question or making a statement by your inflection, voice inflection. I can ask you a question without using a question buzzword by using a label with an upward inflection. Seems like something I just said confused you. Like that's a prompt in your brain that I want information from you. So I give you that upward inflection. It's not a question, but your brain responds to it as if it is a question because of that upward inflection. So, you know, that's the best way to do it is look and then make a verbal observation about what you see, hear, feel on the other side. And if you're wrong, it's okay. If you're wrong, it's okay. They'll just tell you, you know what? What's funny is you'll tell somebody, wow, it seems like you're angry. I'm not angry, I'm frustrated. You go, okay, six in one, half a dozen in the other, frustrated, angry, whatever you want it to be, you can have that. Well, you know, seems like something has you very frustrated and then they tell you about it. So, you know.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, the other thing is going based upon kind of these scenarios. One of the things that I've always thought is the other person gives you everything you need. Whether that be the correction, oh, I mislabeled, I misspoke, the correction, you need that information. Whether that be, you know, your son or daughter, you know, rushing down to get dinner and they look disheveled and upset. You've seen, they gave you all the information you need. And as much as you're saying, labeling is a good technique to really have a conversation about that.
Sandy Hein:Yes, without being intrusive, without coming off as you're interrogating them, you're making an observation and you're just saying it out loud. Because let's face it, when your kid comes down the stairs and they stomp into the kitchen, you're making an observation anyway. The difference here is you're actually saying it. You're vocalizing it. You're putting it out there to see what you get back. And don't be surprised that the first few times they kind of look at you like you're crazy. But if you keep trying, eventually they'll respond to that because they'll realize you're not asking them questions. I mean, you have to be, first of all, you have to be willing to put the work in because this stuff doesn't come naturally to a lot of people. And even in our group, there are skills that some people use that they like better than others. I happen to be a huge fan of mirrors. That's my favorite skill because mirrors are simple. I don't have to think much for a mirror. Whatever you say, I just mirror it. I either mirror it down, saying I understand or I mirror it up, asking for more information. So mirrors are really, really simple. Now you can't keep mirroring because you're going to start to sound like a parrot, but mirror two or three times with genuine interest, genuine curiosity about what's happening on the other side. And the response that you get is going to give you more information. And by the time you get a good amount of information, you can make a nice, deep label about what's happening with them. And then they feel completely heard and understood, which are the two things people want more than anything in the world anyway. They feel heard and understood.
Dylan Carnahan:Don't have to think much.
Sandy Hein:How nice! Good, because you didn't go over five words. Three to five words, top for a mirror. But yeah, you don't have to think much with a mirror because if people, well, really to use any of these skills, you don't have to think too much because people are giving you everything you need. You just have to relax and soak it in and let your intuition tell you what to point out.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, again, you're playing off the information you're given. So you got labeling, right? Labeling emotions, you have mirroring. So repetition of three to five keywords that the other person says. What are some other effective techniques that you can use when negotiating or, frankly, communicating with people?
Sandy Hein:Yeah, dynamic silence. Because the problem I see with a lot of people when they first start using our skills is they just start slamming the skills out there, one after another. Here's a mirror, here's a label, another mirror, another label, and the other side's getting put through the ringer because they're trying to keep up with you, right? When you use one of our skills, you should always pause for a few seconds afterwards before you do anything else, because you have to let their brain kind of catch on to what you've said and then process it before they can give you a response. So, and believe it or not, dynamic silence should be the easiest skill in our skill set, and it's actually the hardest for most people because you have it in your head, you just want to keep putting it out there, you want to keep going. And so you have to make this conscious effort to put this pause in the conversation. And it's really hard, but it's important. Use the nice, yeah, actually you've used a lot of skills since we got here. You've been doing some labels and a couple of calibrated questions, pretty good use of the skills there. So one of the things that's easiest for people to learn, usually right off the bat, is to stop asking questions that you're pushing for a yes. If you're trying to get a yes answer out of someone, flip the words around just a little bit so that they can say no instead of yes, but it means yes for you. Because pushing people for a yes makes them feel trapped, makes them feel like they're making a commitment. Makes them feel like they're not sure what to say because are you tricking them? Are you putting something on them? Are you pushing them so hard? It just gives a bad feeling. So instead, allow them to say no, but it means yes for you because, I mean, let's face it, one of the first words people learn to say when they're babies is no, right? I mean, anybody close to two years old, all they know is no, no, no, no. Doesn't matter what it is, no, it's no. So everyone likes to say no. They're protected. They feel safe. It saves their autonomy. So, and one of the biggest, this is one of the biggest examples of gift people because it's the one that makes the most sense. When you call up somebody and you say, do you have a few minutes to talk? And the person, first of all, freezes because they go, ah, and then they, all this stuff goes through their mind in like 0.2 seconds. Do I have a few minutes to talk? If I do, I don't want to talk to you. If I want to talk to you, I don't want to talk about what you want to talk about. All that goes through their head to the point that they're already frustrated now and all you did was say one thing. So instead, call somebody up and say, hey, is now a bad time? Because they can say, no. And then you get your conversation. Or if it is a bad time, that's fine. They can still say yes. They have the option of saying yes, but you're allowing them to say no. So if they say, yeah, actually it is kind of a bad time, they can say, I can call you back in 10 minutes, five minutes, whatever. Or you can say, okay, well, is it impossible for you to call me back whenever you do have a free moment? No, we're into question. So, yeah, no, it's not impossible, okay, so then you set up the call for later, but go for a no. There's so many things out there, especially in sales training, where they're doing this yes momentum and pushing for yes and getting to yes and all. Everybody wants yes, yes, yes, because we like to hear yes. We like to hear yes, it's good for us, but pushing the other side for yes is bad. So changing that is an important step.
Dylan Carnahan:There's a couple of things there. Firstly, so to role play, I'd be like, are you opposed to coming on the podcast? Is it crazy to think you would come on virtually to speak with me? Things of that nature, right? Far easier no, much as you're saying, when you have to affirm things, there's more weight to it emotionally, for whatever reason.
Sandy Hein:Oh, absolutely, absolutely. It feels more like commitment. It feels like you're committing yourself to something. Some people feel trapped by yes. And there are a lot of sales companies who teach what we call yes tie downs. They try to beat you up with yes, so that they feel like when you get to the end of the call and they've made you say yes 15 times to different things that mean nothing, and then they're gonna hit you with a big one and they hope you say yes, because your brain is gonna keep saying yes. I mean, that's just ridiculous. It's not how it works for one thing, but it's awful to push people for yes.
Dylan Carnahan:It is. I also, this side note, the compliment sandwich where you say something positive, then you have the criticism. It's like you're just slipping in the critique. You know, it's a bad sandwich from beginning. You're like, oh, you did really good about this. Anyway, that was really bad. But anyway, it's really good. It's like you're sliding it in there. And I think when trying to, it's like checkbox approach, right? I'm looking for that yes or, you know, and so what are some of the problems when you hear a yes? You know, not every yes is the same.
Sandy Hein:Right. We don't, well, at The Black Swan Group, we have no faith in yes. We have no faith in yes. It doesn't always mean yes, for one thing, because people sometimes will say yes just to make you go away and shut up and leave them alone. They'll say yes. And that's not what we call a real agreement. You know, that's not a real agreement with anything. So the problem with some people is they go to this negotiation, they get the people on the other side saying, yeah, yeah, that sounds good, that sounds good. And they think, oh, great, we have an agreement. No, you didn't. They just said, wherever you just said sounded good. That wasn't an agreement. You didn't test it. So if you're thinking you have an agreement from someone, you need to find out how, because how is the next step. If you don't get a yes plus a how, it's not a real yes, because how is about implementation. So just because someone tells you, yeah, yeah, that sounds good. Yeah, we can do that. And then they walk away and you think you have a deal in three months later, you understand why you haven't heard from them. It's because it wasn't a real yes. They never intended to go with you. They said yes to make you go away. So instead when they say, yeah, yeah, that sounds good. I think we can do that. You can say, okay, so if we can get this drawn up for you and send the contract over next week, what would next steps look like? And then they'll tell you. And then you can say, okay, so if we don't hear from this person by next Friday, how should we proceed? In other words, when you don't do the first step of what you're telling us you're gonna do, what do we do to get back on track? And there's nothing wrong with doing that. I think people feel like they don't wanna push for that. But your tone of voice, and this is a real pet peeve for me, but your tone of voice is key in all of these interactions. Because if your tone of voice is good and you're using the skills, you can almost say anything to anybody, especially if you use what we call an accusations audit first, because it prepares their brain to hear whatever it is you're gonna say that they might not wanna hear, and it opens up their mind. And you did a nice audit on me at the beginning. I don't know if you did it on purpose or not, but actually before we started recording, I think when you said, you're gonna think this is whatever.
Dylan Carnahan:I tried to show off. You're gonna think I'm crazy. You're gonna think this is ridiculous. So let's dive in that. So an accusations audit would be a compilation of things that the other person might say to disagree with what? Negatively, yeah.
Sandy Hein:Right. So, I mean, technically an accusations audit is a preemptive label. And it's preemptively labeling the negative. So, and it's the first step. When we talk about sequencing, you're going into negotiation or difficult conversation. The first step is to come up with a list of all the negative thoughts the other side has about you before you even go into the conversation. So, when you're talking earlier about trying to go to your parents and come up with a way to say, hey, can this person come over? You would come up with audits for that. You're going to think this is crazy. You're going to wonder why I want to bring someone else into the house. You're going to think that I'm just, we're going to keep you up all night making noise. I mean, all these negative things, they can be thinking about the fact that you want this friend to come over. And then you pause as they all sink in. And then you say, would it be okay if Harrison spent the night? And you've set them up, because accusations, audits, preemptively calling out that negative does a lot of different things for the other side. First of all, it prepares them to hear whatever you're going to say. It allows them to gear up and get ready for whatever's going to be happening. And what kind of works in your favor when you're the one doing the audits is it sends them the worst case scenario. So, you know, it's hard to make a worst case scenario if you're having a friend come to sleep over. But, you know, if you're asking for an upgrade on your hotel room, this is a Black Swan contest, by the way. I don't usually play because I'm usually one of the last ones to get wherever we're going because I'm not a morning person. So by the time I get there, five other people have already gotten sweet upgrades, so I don't even try. But when you get to a hotel and you want to try for an upgrade, you walk up and you give them accusations on it. You're going to think I'm just another needy customer. You're going to feel like I'm one of those people just thinks I can come in here and get whatever I want. And then you pause. How much of a bad situation would I put you in if I asked you to consider giving me an upgrade? By the time you've used those first two audits, they're going, oh no, what's happening? Why am I going to be mad at you? What am I thinking? What's this person going to need? Oh my gosh. And they're going to worst case scenario. They're going to ask me for this. They're going to ask me whatever. And then when you say what it is that you actually want, they feel so relieved because they went to worst case scenario, which means whatever you're asking them is not going to be that bad. And by the time you tell them what you want, they're so relieved that they pretty much give it to you because they feel like, I don't know, I can handle that. That's easy. It's not this over here, which I was afraid it was going to be. So yeah, we can do this. It sets expectations. And it's really, it's probably our most powerful skill. We call it the Jedi mind trick of the Black Swan method, because you're literally getting into the mind of the person on the other side, and you're dialing up their expectations or dialing down their expectation, whatever you need to do. And it's kind of setting that level for you. And it's getting rid of that negative right off the bat, because if you leave negative emotions in play, they're going to muck up everything. It's like not pointing out the elephant in the room, because everyone doesn't want to be the one to point it out. And then what's the elephant doing the whole time you're sitting there having a conversation when you're both avoiding it? It's trampling all over everything. And it's clouding the minds of both sides, because you can't let go of that elephant, which means whatever conversation you're having is not really going anywhere positive. So better to point out the elephant.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah. And that accusations audit, you're priming the other person, right? You're bringing up kind of this whole topic, you're bringing up the elephant, and you're setting that anchor. There's a lot of loss, right? It's scary.
Sandy Hein:Oh my gosh.
Dylan Carnahan:Exactly. And it makes it even better with dynamic silence, because now they're thinking, right?
Sandy Hein:Oh, yeah.
Dylan Carnahan:It's more than just what you said. It's what they're interpreting from that, right?
Sandy Hein:Yeah, and you're paused to let it land.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah.
Sandy Hein:You've got to give them a few seconds to let it hit home about, oh gosh, what is this customer going to want from me? And then some people get a little colorful with it, and they'll say, you're probably not the person that can help me with this. That's like a challenge. That's like, oh, I know you can do this. Look at me asking you to do something I know you're not even going to be able to do. And then when you say what you want, they go, oh, I can do that. Like you told me I could do that. I can do that. So it's just the way you set those expectations.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah. There's one other, there's a lot of things we could talk about, Sandy. I'm trying to think about. I will just briefly say, I know one of the techniques that The Black Swan Group talks about is the not using why. And I will also proudly state that on all 24 episodes of the Simple Questions Podcast, we have not asked one why question. It's too accusatory. So that's something also, right? So why questions, it's accusatory, it's off-putting, honestly-
Sandy Hein:People feel like they have to justify their existence, they have to defend themselves, and you don't want a person coming at you from a position of defense because that's not going to get you anywhere. You just built a negative wall right in front of you.
Dylan Carnahan:And to the listeners that say, you know, Sandy Dillon, but your why, your why is so important. Your why is so important, why you do things. I would just ask you, why do you think that? And that little bit of awkwardness you felt right there, it's exactly what you do to every single person when you ask them why. So stop doing-
Sandy Hein:Yes, exactly. A better way to say why, instead of saying, why did you do this or why did you do that, you go back to my favorite label in the world, seems like you have a reason for doing this, doing that, saying that, thinking that, feeling that, whatever it is, seems like you have a reason for. That's another way to say why without the word why coming out of your mouth. It seems like you have a reason for doing this this way. And it's kind of like, you know, I'm interested in what that reason is, it's kind of what that tone of voice was. So just better ways to say it. There's only one time that why is appropriate. And it's when you're looking for what we call proof of life, proof of life of the deal, essentially. And why you're going into a negotiation, I don't know what kind of negotiation I'm thinking about here, but in negotiation, say you work for a software company, and you're trying to get someone to use your software company to create some certain algorithm that you need for your product. So the software company goes, why us? Why would you choose to talk to us about doing this for you? Because what you're doing there is, well, two things, you're finding out if you're the fool or the favorite of the game. And if they're picking you, if you know that they like you, they're going to speak your value proposition. It's going to come out of their mouths, which you can't do better than that. So they're going to say, ah, you know, we heard that you were great because we know so and so at this company, and they said you did this for them, and what better way to get your company at the top of the list to get that job is by having them say how wonderful you are. Because then later on in the conversation, if they don't like something that you're doing, they're going to have a hard time saying that because they already told you how wonderful you are. And people don't like to contradict themselves. You know, they like to be consistent in thought and action. So if they start contradicting themselves, they feel itky about it. So if they can give you the value proposition, you're probably the favorite in the game, meaning the business is probably going to go to you. If they can't answer that why us question, you're probably the fool in the game and you should cut your losses because the only thing worse than not getting a deal is taking a really, really long time to not get a deal.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah. Running up your balance sheet, time, energy, money. That's a great exception, right? Challenging them, challenging the other side with a why to see, you know, where you stand, right? Interesting.
Sandy Hein:And sometimes they'll, well, usually, actually, they will not really know what to say to if you're not their first choice, because a lot of times, let's face it, you're the one they're getting an estimate from so they can go somewhere else and use your estimate to get a better price. So if you're in that situation, the best way to test it is that proof of life. Why us? Why are you choosing to look at a proposal from us? And then they'll answer you, and sometimes they'll answer you in a way that, oh, well, you know, because we're looking at a lot of different people, we wonder this, we wonder that, they're not talking about you in the effort moving forward, then you're probably not the favorite.
Dylan Carnahan:You're just running up the price or being pitted against someone else.
Sandy Hein:You're helping them pick someone else, essentially.
Dylan Carnahan:We're across from one another. This is, there's kind of, there's a couple of questions I have here. We'll go with this one. How do you approach another skilled negotiator?
Sandy Hein:It's the best negotiation you will ever have. Because they understand what's going on, you understand what's going on. You're in a collaborative mindset. Using tactical empathy is trying to get a trust based influence, which means we're influencing, not manipulating. And people say that all the time, it seems like what you're doing is manipulating people. Well, the difference between manipulation and influence is intent. So if your intent is to go in there and manipulate someone, then yes, you're manipulating someone. But if your intent is to get a good trust based influence, then if you have someone else on the other side that's also Black Swan trained, you're going to have the easiest, best, most collaborative negotiation of your life because you're both looking to do the right thing for both sides. You're both looking to get that trust based influence. You're both looking to totally listen in here about what the other side has to say. You're staying curious. You're not being judgmental. And you'll come to a deal or resolution that much more quickly.
Dylan Carnahan:You're highlighting, hey, you're going to be able to communicate a lot more, a lot better.
Sandy Hein:Yeah. There's a reason why at The Black Swan Group, we use these skills on each other all the time. It's how we communicate. It's how we talk. Well, mostly because a lot of times when we hire a new employee, we want them to be versatile first in the skills. We want them to get used to using it. So we use it all the time in our meetings and with each other and when we're at live events because it demonstrates for people how it can work. And yes, we all know the skills. We pretty much put them out there. So if we're using them with each other, there's no fear in using them with another company that's been Black Swan training.
Dylan Carnahan:Another question, more of a nuance thing, and something that does come up, especially people doubt themselves. And sometimes you don't know quite what to do in a situation. So when do you walk away from a negotiation?
Sandy Hein:There's red flags. There's things you can look for, like we talked about before, they don't want to give you your value proposition. If they're not specifically looking for things that you can offer, or they want you to give them this proposal, work on this proposal, and you can look at the history of a company and you can see if they're looking for a new software company to do stuff for them, who have they been dealing with the past 10 years? And now all of a sudden they're coming to you, what's going on with the company that they normally use? So the company that they normally use starting to charge them more money, so they want to go back at it with something else. And so are you going to spend two weeks putting this proposal, this hour long proposal together when you know that you don't have a shot of getting that business? You know, there are tests you can do. If somebody sends you an email basically saying, hey, we're looking for this, this and this, you can send back something that says, so it seems like you have an idea of how you'd like to see this go. And then they'll fill, they'll, they'll tell you what that is. If that idea doesn't involve you or things you can do, you're not the favorite of the game. And that's when you cut your losses. Because if you have to keep hounding after someone, when they're trying to get you to do work for them because that, you know, you're working on money or you have five other people that you're competing against, you're not getting the time or the effort or the responses from them. You're probably in a losing game there. And your time is much better spent looking for someone who wants to choose you instead of trying to fight against another entity that is probably higher up on the list than you are. So there's just little things you can do, little things you can say to kind of test the waters. And a lot of them all come back to just labels. It seems like we're one of the top two that you're looking at. That's a good one, because if they're looking at five different companies, and especially if you're dealing with procurement, you're looking at five different companies, you know, they just want proposals because procurement is going to beat you up to get the best deal. So if you're five people, and you know, typically in your space, they get five proposals. When you're talking to that person who's collecting the proposals, you can say, so it seems like we may be in the top two of who you're deciding upon, if they go, ah, they can't really answer you. Boom, that's a red flag. But the problem is people get so stuck on, I'm going to get this deal. This is a good company. I'm going to get this deal that they don't let it go. And then at the end, they look back and they go, you know what, I never had that deal. You just have to be more aware and stay curious about what's happening on the other side to keep yourself from going through all that trouble and that hassle when you don't have a shot.
Dylan Carnahan:If it looks like a duck sounds like a duck, you know, it's probably a duck. And it seems like it seems like you have to have self-confidence to walk away from a negotiation.
Sandy Hein:That's the, well, it's self-confidence, yes, but it's also what's the word I'm looking for? It's also people sometimes it's part of your pride. You have to put that aside and put your ego aside. And there's a lot of companies that I've worked with now in doing this training. I see people who want to hold on to that because it's a great deal. If I got that company would make me look so good. Okay, well, you're taking six months to try and get a company that you don't have a snowball's chance and very hot place of getting when the four other people that you're trying to look better than or now have now given up on those and they've gotten three other pieces of business a piece now while you're still concentrating on that one over there because your pride and your ego says, I need that one because it's going to make me look really good. You have to let that go. And some people can't do that.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, it's hard. I think you also have the kind of checkbox mentality again. We're in this deal. We're going towards this. This is the outcome I want. And then you kind of have some confirmation buys, get the blinders up. You miss the cues. You ask the good questions. You avoid the answers that you heard in replacement of what you want to hear. And then opportunity costs. What could you have done while you were doing all that?
Sandy Hein:Right. And once again, that's mindset. It's your mindset.
Dylan Carnahan:Something I want to touch on that you alluded to at the beginning of this conversation, you brought up that you were an assertive type. How does sex personality impact negotiation? Everyone's not the same.
Sandy Hein:No, everyone's not the same. And it's funny because being the only full-time instructor at the Black Swan Group that is actually female, people feel like I have some magic answers for women. I really don't accept that, except that don't assume that whatever happens in the negotiation is happening because you're female, because it doesn't really matter. Use the skills. Everybody can use the skills the same way. I do feel like women are less afraid to throw caution to the wind and try the skills. They're much less afraid to do that. Men take some a little longer to warm up to putting something out there because I think their pride and their ego gets away in the way a little more often than it does for women. Women are like, oh, heck yeah, I'm going to try that, and they go for it. And it's funny because I've heard Chris and Derek say the same thing. But as far as personality types go, let's see, Chris is assertive, and I'm assertive. And Derek is an analyst, and if you go to the website and you look at these faces, you're going to go, oh my gosh, really? Troy is like, I mean, this guy's like 6'5. Dark-skinned black male wears a cowboy hat and cowboy boots all the time, and he is an accommodator, but he is so intimidating. Just stand next to him and you feel intimidated, but he's what we call an accommodator, which is a friendly voice that you should be all the time. Then there's Derek, who's the analyst, who is just like serious, loves Excel spreadsheets, down to everything has to be teased, crossed, eyes dotted. And then there's Chris and I, and just like, ah, it'll work out. Just go ahead, it'll work out, no problem. It'll be all right. And that's how we look at it, because we're assertive and we're like, hey, it'll be fine.
Dylan Carnahan:We'll be good.
Sandy Hein:So it's just, it's funny because everyone says, but I'm a little bit of everything. Well, yeah, so am I. I mean, I don't hate Excel spreadsheets. I'd rather not look at them, but if I have to, I will, you know, and I can be extremely accommodating. I was a teacher for six years. You can't be assertive and be a teacher. It doesn't work well, you know? And so your personality type really is just who you are when your back's against the wall. You know, what do you do? I come out swinging, you know? And Derek might come out with facts and logic. And Troy is going to say, Whoa, hold on, why are we getting so carried away? And I'm going to be like, No, no, no, you didn't do that. So it just, you know, it helps really just know who you are. So you know what you need to work on. Because sometimes with me, I go over the top, I get a little high, strong, I start talking really fast. And then people kind of go, Oh my god, what is up with her? So I have to know that I have the tendency to do that so that I can take a deep breath and calm myself down and go back to finding my what Chris calls a late night FM DJ voice instead of my high, strong, assertive voice. So more about knowing who you are and understanding the person that you have on the other side.
Dylan Carnahan:You brought up your teaching background. I think that's important to take a step back and go, okay, it's your strengths, right? You can emphasize and increase parts of your personality based upon the setting. That does not mean, as you mentioned, when you're backs up against the wall, that you're going to act, that teacher's going to come out, right? That doesn't necessarily mean that. It's kind of your largest strength and understanding and kind of playing to that. That's where you would see some improvement or awareness.
Sandy Hein:Yes, awareness is a better word.
Dylan Carnahan:Well, Sandy, we talked about a lot. There's a lot. We covered a lot. I'm glad. What can people do to find out more about you and the work you do?
Sandy Hein:Well, our website, blackswanltd.com, there's a lot of, I mean, people laugh. And we've actually had someone at a training ask us, why do you even have these trainings? Because you give so much information away for free. And how do you get people to come? And Derek and I looked at each other and said, well, you're here. People still come to the training. I don't know what to tell you. But there's a lot of free Black Swan content out there. So if you go to our website, there's all kinds of ebooks and stuff that you can download. There's The Edge, our newsletter that comes out once a week. And then we have a whole YouTube page that is just packed full of videos. That's the best place to go. Because if you have a question about an Accusations Audit, you can go into the YouTube page, put Accusations Audit into the search bar, and it'll pull up the videos that deal with Accusations Audits. And you can hear whoever of us that they have there talking about it. So YouTube pages where I think people get a lot of information because they get a lot of explanation about a lot of the different skills that we use and just empathy, figuring out what empathy is as a whole.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah. Fantastic. And I know also, I'm going to throw this out there, I'll put some additional resources in the show notes for everyone to look at. You also have two books that you've written.
Sandy Hein:I do. Those are those are books from my previous life. But one of them is just a little kind of like a little handbook guidebook that basically what you can do to keep yourself safe, keep your children safe in the crazy world that we have going on today. And then the other one was I was a sex crimes detective for the last almost 12 years, I guess I was at the police department and just kind of talks about my journey through that and best practices with dealing with victims and the best way to get a suspect prosecuted. And a lot of little other things thrown in there. But that one's called Why Are We Shaming Suspects Instead of Blaming? Why aren't we shaming suspects instead of blaming victims? And it really just talks about people's views on victim blaming and why it happens and why it shouldn't, essentially. So I'm actually working on a new book, though, Dylan. Sandy? I'm working on a book for The Black Swan Group. And the tentative title for right now is Empathy, The Great Equalizer, Empowering Women to Influence. So it's going to be a book more geared toward women and basically finding their negotiation feats and being able to succeed using the skills and being able to influence as a woman, because sometimes people find that difficult. So we're working on that. We don't have a book geared toward women yet. So I'm going to be working on that. And we're hoping for a release next year, I think. So it's coming, though.
Dylan Carnahan:This is fantastic. We got a sneak peek.
Sandy Hein:There you go.
Dylan Carnahan:Sandy, you've given absolute gold. We got like an hour. We got all this great stuff talked about. You gave us all these fantastic resources. I want to thank you so much for sharing your time and knowledge today. It's greatly appreciated. That wraps up our conversation with Sandy Hein. We talked about the components of a negotiation, what it's like approaching another skilled negotiator, and how sex and personality impact negotiation. Go to the show notes for this episode to see the resources Sandy mentioned. Do not forget to listen to Boots on the Ground by Chris Hudson on Apple Music or Spotify. And lastly, subscribe to the Simple Questions Podcast to get notified when our latest episodes are released. Thank you for listening, and remember to keep asking questions.