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What Are The Benefits Of Cultivated Meat?
Dr. Faraz Harsini • 2023-01-03
Dylan Carnahan:Welcome to the Simple Questions Podcast. This is your host, Dylan Carnahan. You're listening to Blue by Fresh of Breath Air. Fresh of Breath Air is an independent rock band based in Kansas City, Missouri. The band is comprised of multi-instrumentalists and vocalists, Coleman and Shelby, bassist Amanda and drummer Sean. The band was formed in February of 2022 and released their first EP titled Thoroughly Depressed Everyone, Then Happily Left, in August of 2022. You can follow the band on social media at FOBABand. The question for this episode is, What are the benefits of cultivated meat? You will learn in this episode what cultivated meat is, how cultivated meat is made, and the impact this technology will have on how we eat. Our guest has a PhD in Biomedical Science, Cell Physiology and Molecular Physics, is a Bioprocessing Senior Scientist at The Good Food Institute, and is the founder and CEO of Allied Scholars for Animal. I'm in seventh grade. I am in a culinary class. We have a guest speaker. There's a gentleman that is a food scientist from a local ice cream company that comes in and demonstrates and gives us a maculite presentation over all of the various things that go into ice cream. And that was the moment I realized, wow, there's a lot of thought and science that goes into food. So, Dr. Harsini, how did you become a bioprocessing scientist at The Good Food Institute? I mean, what was kind of your catalyst or realization that this is something you would want to get involved with?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:Yeah, that's a very good question. I think the path was rather convoluted, but the only thing that was consistent the whole time was, I always ask myself, what is the best thing that you can do with your life to help others? But it really started by me studying chemical engineering for my bachelor, and that's just because I enjoyed math and chemistry and chemical engineering felt the best combination of both. But working on chemical engineering, I realized that actually petroleum, which is what I was studying, I think is a leading cause of environmental damages. So instead of that, I switched to biofuel research and then started the Environmental Society in my university. So I guess I was always really interested in environmental issues because I thought that impacts a lot of people. During my undergrad, I also ended up doing some charity work. I'm a musician, so I play piano and accordion and a bunch of other instruments. So I started playing in hospitals, and this whole work was basically inspired by Patch Adams. He's an American physician who basically did clinic clowning. So he went to clinics and played for children. And I just have to say that clowns are not scary things in other parts of the world. And this is in Iran where I did my undergrad. So just seeing a lot of suffering that was involved in cancer and seeing a lot of cancer patients, especially children, again, I ask myself, what is the best thing you can do with your life? Is chemical engineering the answer? Do you just want to play music for children or do you want to do something more fundamental to help them? So because of that, I switched my degree to cancer research. So I studied cancer for my masters and then ended up doing my doctorate in cell physiology and molecular biophysics. What I basically studied was looking at structure and function of proteins because proteins are virtually involved in any diseases. So I knew that if I'm good at understanding protein structure and function, I can apply that to any other form of biomedical research. And then after my PhD, I had a few postdoc options from MIT and other places, but I really decided to join pharmaceutical companies to advance clinical research, to bring this research as quickly as possible to patients. And again, working in pharmaceutical companies, this question always nagged me. Is this the best use of your time? So something I didn't mention is that throughout my academic path, everywhere I looked, there was one common cause that was involved in these problems, and that was animal consumption. It was like a contributing factor that often was actually the leading cause of a lot of topics that I was studying. It didn't matter if it was environmental health or what. Even when I was in a pharmaceutical company, I was working on infectious diseases like influenza and inflammation also. But again, when I looked at the root cause, it was a lot of animal product consumptions. So I have to say I grew up eating meat just like anyone else. I knew nothing about the impacts of animal consumption on health, environment, animal suffering involved, none of that. I guess I just never questioned it and I trusted that my parents with high school diplomas just knew the best. And I have to say that I'm that kind of a guy who likes to address the root cause of problems and not just the symptoms. So I personally stopped contributing to these environmental issues and animal cruelty by stopping consuming animal products. But I feel like that just wasn't enough. You know, I realized that I need to do something else, something more. And I realized that we really just have to revolutionize our broken food system. So that's why what I do bioprocessing in cultivated meat. And so here I am. And I just have to say that I always ask myself or told myself that statistically, logically, mathematically, morally, show me an issue that causes more problems and kills more humans and non-human animals than animal consumption. And I drop what I'm doing right now and I'll go do that. So show me something as impactful that impacts so many people and animals and the environments. I will quit my job right now and go do that. But I'm not convinced that there is something as impactful. So that's why I work on cultivated meat today.
Dylan Carnahan:That is a lot of conviction in that statement. And I really like you constantly assessing where you're at was the best thing that you can do for really society at large. And what a fantastic. That is it's not a traditional linear path, is that?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:It's not.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah. Wow. That is extremely interesting. And I you're seeing a lot of things that throughout your involvement, all these different areas, a lot of symptoms and in identifying and going a little further that root cause of animal consumption. I really want to dig into that. What led you to see that?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:So when I started cancer research, I wasn't vegan or anything. But what I realized was that 40 percent of cancers are preventable according to UK cancer research. It's not just meat. It's like less meat consumption, less alcohol, tobacco and et cetera. My dream at the time was to even, you know, reduce cancer risk by one percent, which is like a lot. I feel like you get Nobel Prize if you do that. Yet we have this 40 percent here. So almost half of people who die from cancer, they didn't have to die. And to me, the fact that we spend so much time and money on curing cancer, but no one is really addressing the root cause was something that really irritated me. And it goes beyond that. You really look at all leading causes of death. So I was like, OK, I want to cure cancer. But what is the number one cause of death? That's cardiovascular diseases. Over 80% of cardiovascular diseases are preventable. That's just mind boggling. Most people who die from cardiovascular diseases shouldn't die. We all know someone who died from either cancer, diabetes, or cardiovascular diseases or other chronic diseases. And when I really looked at the data, not only animal consumption causes a lot of these diseases, and plant-based diets can actually prevent them, but also plant-based diets can reverse the progression of these diseases. So if someone has already heart diseases and diabetes, especially type 2 diabetes, they can actually reverse the progression if they go plant-based. So knowing that you go to a doctor and they never talk to you about your diet, and they just really don't have that much nutritional education and all that, it really bothered me. And so because of that, I became really interested in just the role of animal consumption in our health and also in environmental issues, because I'm embarrassed to say that I did my bachelor in chemical engineering. I did a lot of environmental stuff, biofuel production, and no one really told me about animal agriculture and impact of animal consumption and the damages that it's causing to the environment. It's crazy that no one is talking about them. And I feel like when something is neglected, it's my responsibility to talk about it. And really the point here is that I do have my own interests. I'm interested in science, engineering and all that. But first of all, people have to realize that your interests change over time. And in addition to that, there is something really satisfying when you know that your work is helping other people, helping the environment. It's impactful. It's actually one of the biggest factors that determines if you are happy at your job. So just something to consider. That's why I think the impact of your work is a big factor.
Dylan Carnahan:Wow, that's a lot. Great, great stuff. I love that, really that conviction and wanting to have an impact and having a work that has positive externalities that can help society. There's a lot of broad topics that we could discuss. I want to gravitate towards your current profession, your current role that you're trying to make an impact in and you're really trying to hit on this animal consumption. And one of the means that you're doing that is through cultivated meat. Now, that's an excellent two words there. But what is cultivated meat?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:Yeah, I guess the term can be a little confusing for people who hear it for the first time, but hopefully people have heard it already. And I have to say, cultivated meat is also known as lab-grown meat. But it's basically real meat. It's produced using advanced cell culture techniques. Cultivated meat is the sustainable, quality-free replacement of conventional meat, which is unsustainable just like petroleum and causes an enormous amount of suffering on both humans and non-human animals. So for cultivated meat, we basically grow muscles and tissue cells directly. It's fast, sustainable, and just more ethical. And then once we obtain the sample, we generate a cell bank. So it's basically a giant freezer with a lot of cells in it. So there will be no need to go back to the original animal and bother them ever again. So every time you want a batch of steak, you basically go to your freezer, aka the cell bank, grab a vial and start a culture from it, as easy as that. And the technique is really not something new. We've been doing cell culture for many, many years in medical fields and in pharmaceuticals. Now we are just adapting the same technology to fix our food system. So yeah, and just I want to add that we don't call it lab-grown meat, because where do you think the food comes from when you call it lab-grown?
Dylan Carnahan:The lab.
Dr. Faraz Harsini:Lab, right, but just cultivated meat, just like any other food that you consume is coming from factories. So it's not, it's no longer produced in a lab, and it's coming from a factory. So you can think about it as a meat brewery, basically.
Dylan Carnahan:I mean, yeah, okay, that framing, right? Okay, if you're going to go grab a bag of Cheetos, right? Like that came from a factory, there's not necessarily, you know where we go, oh, there's a chef whipping up Cheetos or whatever, right? It's kind of that same frame of mind just applying it to this, I guess, specifically. So that's interesting, that cell bank concept as well. Now, okay, so we got our sample, if you will, right? We got our cell bank. Now, how do we actually cultivate said meat? What is the process for that?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:Yeah, that's a great question. Meat cultivating basically mimics the biological processes of cell growth that naturally happens inside an animal, except in this case, it's happening in a reactor or incubator. So first, we obtain a small muscle sample from a live animal. Think about it as like a tiny biopsy. Then we extract some cells from the sample and culture them in a medium that is rich in nutrients. So it basically works like blood that provides nutrients and oxygen and everything. So same thing here. This way, cells can grow exponentially in an environment that is controlled and completely contaminant free. And then we grow them in large incubators. We call them bioreactors, but really don't let the word scare you. Beer is also made in bioreactors, except that we just call them fermenters, right? So, yeah, you just have a big fermenter, a big incubator, however you want to think about it. And we grow a lot of cells, muscle cells or fat cells or whatever. And then we harvest, we collect the cells and we put them in a form of the meat that we want to produce.
Dylan Carnahan:What, that is, that's extremely interesting. That's just extremely interesting. You know, as far as the cultivation goes, you know, what animals are we using in the cell bank? And what, you know, you mentioned muscle. I mean, how does that, you know, what animals are we using? And then the second thing, what animal cells, I should say. And then the second thing would be, how do you get the proportions right to make something consumable? Is it all muscle? Is it all fat? You know, how do you, how does that work as well?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:That's actually an excellent question. So the beauty of cultivated meat is that you can actually take any animal, just pick any animal that you want, and you can grow their meat because you can, it's science, right? You can replicate it with any cells. So the origin of cells really doesn't matter that much. It matters in terms of like how you are going to, you know, actually do it, but the cell culture technique would be the same. So the beauty of it is that you can do the same thing with fish. You can do it with chicken, you know, pigs, cows. I don't know, dinosaurs, whatever. So pick your animal that you want to eat their meat, and you can basically replicate their meat eventually in the lab. And about the composition, that's also a great question. There are companies that are working also on fat cells. So you can actually produce, you know, grow fat cells in addition to muscle cells. And you can play with the combination and the ratio and everything to make it just right and almost as identical to real meat, the conventional meat. So it's going to be real meat, but, you know, identical to conventional meat. So yeah, there are things like that that you can do because what really gives the meat its texture and taste is the, you know, fat and muscle cells and other additives. So we are able to reproduce that already, you know, just using science of cell culture. But yeah, the short answer is you can use any animal that you want in theory. And yeah, to get the texture right, there are companies that are working on co-culturing fat cells with muscle cells.
Dylan Carnahan:Interesting, interesting. You know, in talking about this, what are the reasons that we don't see cultivated meat everywhere? What are the obstacles that face widespread adoption of cultivated meat?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:Yeah, I think it eventually comes down to money and the cost of production. But something to realize is that the science, like I mentioned, is not new. But that doesn't mean that there are not challenges. Most of the challenges are in scaling up. It's mainly the cost and regulations, like governmental regulations. But about the regulations, I think the prospects look pretty good, especially with FDA's new announcements just last week, that they showed green light to one of the cultivated meat companies to go ahead and produce their products. They actually said that they have no further questions about the safety of the product at this moment, which was a great step for this field. But that doesn't mean that there are not challenges. One challenge is we want to replicate the texture and taste of conventional meat. So then, like you mentioned, we don't have one type of meat. We have fish, we have chicken, we have bacon. They all have different characteristics, and then we have to figure out how to replicate those. There are solutions for that. For instance, we use something called scaffolds. Scaffolds are structures that can be even edible, that we can use to induce cells to grow in certain structures. So that's one idea, for instance. But really, the end goal is the end product, the cultivated meat, should taste the same or better, and it should cost the same or less compared to conventional meat. And really, the biggest challenge right now is the cost, which I guess manifests in the form of scaling up. But I have to say that scaling up itself is not something that we don't have the technology for it. We do that in pharmaceutical companies every single day, except that we are using pharmaceutical-grade stuff. So if you use pharmaceutical-grade equipment to make beer, instead of just like your friendly breweries, great fermenters, then you couldn't afford beer either. So we just need for the technology to develop, engineers to develop better technologies that are cheaper, and so we can scale up in a cost-effective manner. But I can say that we can have the product really soon. It's only a matter of lowering the cost and making it comparable to conventional meat.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, those are two interesting obstacles. Going back to, you bring up cost, right? And going back to our earlier conversation about this cultivation process, what is the yield or production like? How much are we making, cultivating at once? What kind of volume is the current state of things?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:That's a very good question. I would say that you should ask this question from me probably in a few months, and I would have a better answer for it because something that I'm working on, literally right now, like nowadays, my biggest project is to survey the industry about their production capacity. Because otherwise, it's very difficult to know because a lot of companies don't really tell others about their real capacity. So it's really hard to understand. But working in GFI, we have the relationships so we can basically keep it confidential, but also have an idea about the state of production right now in industry. But we do make enough that a lot of these companies showcase their products. But I would say probably by the end of next year, maybe even sooner, we can have enough that you can find it in at least higher end, you know, retails and restaurants. You can find some cultivated meat, hopefully.
Dylan Carnahan:Wow, that's really interesting. So yeah, you're saying you're in the process of reaching out, getting some transparency to see, hey, what is the industry? What are we currently putting out? And what would be the use of having that information, other than answering Dylan Carnahan's question on the Simple Questions Podcast?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:Because we can actually, if we have accurate data, then we can have better predictions of how fast we are moving forward. What are the challenges? So the survey includes other information as well. So it's not just the production capacity, but what are other challenges? Then we can actually put grants on those challenges and try to get scientists to work on these problems, to accelerate. We can find out the regulatory challenges and talk to government. So there are more questions involved in the survey. But definitely knowing how much we are making right now, it can help us to predict how fast we are going and correlate that with how much money we are putting in cultivated meat research and all that.
Dylan Carnahan:So it's a good indicator to see how you're progressing. And then the other thing you're saying is, hey, we can survey, get additional information, and use that to overcome political, economic, whatever the scenario is.
Dr. Faraz Harsini:Absolutely.
Dylan Carnahan:And that really ties in another question coming off the top here, which is what is the role of the Good Food Institute? It sounds like you're an ambassador within this industry for overcoming and developing things surrounding cultivated food.
Dr. Faraz Harsini:Yeah, that's also a good question. So the problem is that a lot of places that are working on cultivated meat, there are businesses, so a lot of technology and information that they obtain or develop is going to be confidential. So the rest of the industry is not going to benefit from that. What GFI does, we are a nonprofit, so we oversee not just cultivated meat, but also plant-based proteins, and together we call them alternative proteins or alt-proteins. So we oversee the scientific and technological advancements of alternative proteins globally, and not just in the US. So we have a lot of open-source resources, and we constantly analyze the current challenges we give, you know, grants to academic institutes or industrial places to come and work on these challenges particularly. And yeah, we try to facilitate talking to government, and there is a lot of areas that GFI is involved in to basically facilitate and accelerate this transition to a world where alternative proteins are no longer alternative.
Dylan Carnahan:That is extremely helpful. It's a great bit of context to have there. Now, in talking about cultivated meat, there's obviously a lot of effort being put in, right? We have some firms here that have confidential information trying to make a business out of producing cultivated meat. We have the Good Food Institute that's working hard to create a sustainable food system through alternative. So all this effort is being put in, what are the benefits of cultivated meat?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:That's an excellent question. I think I guess I was waiting for it. Honestly, I think the benefits of cultivated meat are basically overwhelming, and that is very clear in the number of businesses and startups that have started working on cultivated meat. I would answer this by, I guess a little differently than anyone else. I would say animal suffering is probably one of the best things that cultivated meat can reduce or eliminate. The reason I say that is that eating animal products is completely unnecessary and needless. We don't rely on meat, dairy or egg for survival. But the interesting part is that we say that we care about animals, most people do at least, but there is this disconnect that when we sit at dinner table, we just forget about what's happening to animals, right? So there is a very good documentary that I always recommend to people. It's called Dominion. It's on YouTube. So it shows the standard practices in industries that have used animals for egg, meat, dairy, etc. And a lot of this footage is also from industries that label their products as humanely raised, grass-fed, organic, etc. So the point is, when people see that, everyone is disgusted. No one really wants to see animals to go through that. So I think the best benefit of cultivated meat is that finally you get to say that you love animals. And if you're eating cultivated meat, you align your actions with your values and you're not causing that animal suffering. And I think that's a huge relief for a lot of people who care about animals. And I think that includes the majority of people. Really nobody, unless they're a psychopath, really nobody enjoys hurting animals. So that's a huge benefit, I think. But really to understand the benefits of cultivated meat, first of all, we really have to talk about the problems with our current food system and how cultivated meat can prevent these problems. I say, you know, our current food system is the leading cause of a range of global issues that are threatening literally every single life on this planet. And, you know, while animal production provides a tiny fraction of global food supply, it is the worst contributing factor in environmental issues, public health issues, and animal cruelty. So we can talk about a few examples. One of the big ones is world hunger and global malnutrition. So the reason is that the globally, the vast majority of crops that we grow is to feed to farm animals and not to feed to humans. So what really happens is that it drives up the cost of legumes and grains and contributes to world hunger and global malnutrition. So for people who really care about world hunger, this is a hot topic. This is something that they should jump on. And another topic that really interests me, and I have a lot of research experience on that, is antibiotic resistance. And I would say that ask any biomedical scientist, ask them, what is the, I guess, number one threat to human life in terms of biomedical sciences? And they will tell you antibiotic resistance. It should be either number one or one of the top three. The reason for that is, well, let me ask you, what percentage of antibiotics that we produce in the US do you think we are feeding them to animals?
Dylan Carnahan:What percentage are we producing that we're giving to our food supply? I'm going to say a large amount. I'm going to say north of 70 percent. I'm going to go crazy.
Dr. Faraz Harsini:Exactly. You're actually on point. So in the US., it's 80 percent. Globally, it's 70 percent. So just think about it. 80 percent of antibiotic that we produce in the US is to feed to animals so that they don't get sick in the terrible conditions that are raised in. So these animals are consistently pumped with antibiotics. But what do you think happens with antibiotics when they consume it? They're just going to secrete it out, right? So it ends up in water. It ends up in soil. And it puts selective pressure for bacteria that naturally are resistant to these antibiotics. So what really happens is that if we ever have a pandemic from these bacteria that are antibiotic resistant, which is only a matter of time, this is going to be the end of modern medicine as we know it. Because at that point, we have this pandemic that we have literally no antibiotic for because they're resistant to antibiotics. And, you know, going back to animal consumption, it's literally, you know, like I said, 80% of antibiotic is used and used in animal sector. So that's why it's a huge problem.
Dylan Carnahan:So that's really interesting. So obviously, with this cultivated meat, there is going to be presumably no antibiotics used in that process because we're not having it in conditions that we would need to use 80% of. So that's an advantage, a benefit. I will just ask kind of the negative externalities of using antibiotics with, you know, that has on our food system. So you're saying, you know, is there, I want to say, so there's kind of a two things that I would say. So one, you're saying that resistance, antibiotic resistance that will perpetuate it by using that. And then I would also, is there a negative externality of people consuming that amount of antibiotics? Is that is that a negative externality as well?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the antibiotic ends up in soil, ends up in water. So from water, then if it doesn't get treated well, you actually drink it too. You can drink it. It can end up in groundwater. So it's not just eating the animal. So, yeah, of course, it can end up in your body. It impacts your gut microbiome. And remember, it's not having antibiotics for once or twice that causes antibiotic resistance. It's having it consistently over time in small dosages, especially because you are consistently putting pressure on bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics. In fact, it's already one of the top causes of death in hospitals because they use a lot of antibiotics there. You do have this massive problem with antibiotic resistant species in hospitals, but it's not a pandemic yet. But it's only a matter of time. So unless we change our food system, having other pandemics is just another matter of time. Actually, something I wanted to mention is pandemics. So you have antibiotic resistance, but you also have pandemics and zoonotic diseases. So these are diseases that come from other animals. Basically, animals work like an incubator, so they can have, let's say, influenza. So they get influenza that is for pigs, and then they catch influenza from humans, and then they mix them up, and now you have this super bug that is so much more stronger, and it can kill both people and the animals. And I have to emphasize that this is not just about factory farming. It's about animal consumption at all, because even in tiny little farms, backyard chickens with all these domesticated animals, they can still contribute to zoonotic diseases. As we know, COVID-19 most likely started from a wet market, right? So not a factory farm, but just a wet market. So again, for as long as we are consuming animals in the way we do, instead of cultivated meat, there is a huge risk for pandemics and zoonotic diseases. And going back to the benefits, land use is another thing. So generally for conventional meat, you need land for growing crops, to raise animals, for slaughterhouses and all that. With cultivated meat, you need 99% less land. We are in an era of water scarcity, so that's a huge thing. One interesting stat here is that one single steak takes as much water as three months of daily showering. I repeat that three months of daily showering is how much water it takes to make one single steak. Cultivated meat requires up to 96% less water. Again, especially in cases where we have a problem with water scarcity, you look at the causes and the solutions, and you come across animal consumption and cultivated meat as a solution. And the land use that I mentioned, it's more than land. It causes deforestation and habitat destruction. The reason for that is 80% of soy that we grow is again to feed animals, not to feed humans. So going back to why it causes global malnutrition and hunger, it also causes Amazon deforestation, because we keep destroying forests to grow crops, et cetera, et cetera. What else? We have climate change is a big one. So now everyone is talking about climate change, but then you look, you know, animal consumption is a leading cause of climate change. The reason for that is cows produce methane. So methane is a much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. So because of that, they contribute to global warming and climate change more than anything else. So that's what I was talking about. I know that a lot of folks care about, you know, climate. So you can do a lot of different things, but the best thing that an individual can do is to not consuming animal products, for the environment at least, and dedicating their research and career to really combating the root cause. And since you mentioned that, there is another benefit also for cultivated meat, which is it's grown in a completely sterile environment. So there's not going to be any contaminants. And, you know, so you can avoid common contaminations with meat, such as E coli or salmonella. And I guess lastly, I would say that there is also a lot of benefits with environmental impacts in terms of energy consumption. So interestingly, chickens are engineered to be the most efficient way to produce meat. What I mean by that is it takes nine calories in. So you have to feed a chicken nine calories to get one calorie in the form of meat. But again, chickens are the most effective way of doing that. And that doesn't mean that chickens are good. So it doesn't mean that go from red meat to chicken, because if you compare chickens to plant based, chickens have 40 times more impact on climate per calorie than, let's say, legumes. And these animals are already genetically modified to be very effective in terms of efficiency of turning calories to meat, to points that a lot of these chickens can't even stand their weight if you look at them. And yet still, they're not efficient. So it just shows you how bad even our best option is when it comes to energy. And that's just another benefit of cultivated meat, because it's much more energy efficient.
Dylan Carnahan:It goes back, just a lot of the benefits that you've listed there really do go back to when we first started this conversation. Really said, hey, what is the root cause of all this? And you're really making a strong, compelling argument here for animal consumption. And touches a lot of various areas that you brought up. With that in mind, I want to touch on this as we're speaking to a founder of this, which is what is the Allied Scholars for Animal Protection?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:So I think I was able, I mean, I hope I was able to make a case why I always thought that we are lacking this education. And a lot of people like myself never came across this information that I just talked about. It took me, you know, 10, 15 years of academic research and working in industries to learn all of that. But I feel like it was just completely missing from, you know, my education. So that's something that I'm trying to fix. So that's why I started my nonprofit, Allied Scholars for Animal Protection or ASAP, which is a national nonprofit. And this mission is to join scholars and students to transform universities in areas that impact human and non-human well-being. So we basically support, mentor and organize the students to do effective and sustainable animal advocacy. And again, why animal advocacy? Because I'm convinced that it's the most neglected issue that impacts the environment, people and literally all animals. You know, there is hardly anything as large in terms of scale, suffering, damage and threat to human and non-human lives as consumption of animal products. So because of that, this is my sole focus in my life, in my professional life and even outside with my nonprofit. So we basically support students to make their campuses more sustainable by turning their dining halls to plant based dining, where students can enjoy delicious, healthy, cruelty free and affordable foods. And another topic that we also touched is food injustice. So what percentage of population would you expect to be lactose intolerant, if you wanted to guess?
Dylan Carnahan:I'm going to say 47%.
Dr. Faraz Harsini:Yeah, this time you're a little off. So it's actually so much more. So about 70% of global population is lactose intolerant. It's just a group of white people who had a mutation that allows them to digest lactose, but majority of world can't. And in fact, 80% of black people and 90% of Asians are completely lactose intolerant. So the problem is that our current food system a lot of times pushes and forces these people to consume dairy by putting cheese and milk and everything, not providing education. And even in schools, it's mandated for schools to provide milk to all the students. Now you see the problem there. Then you have a black child or Asian child versus a white child, and that group specifically is going to feel worse physically, feel sick, and they fall behind. So this is commonly referred to as food injustice. So another topic that we touch on with our nonprofit is basically working with dining halls to bring this awareness to them and try to fix this. So yeah, basically we focus on outreach and education to make universities just and sustainable places.
Dylan Carnahan:Well said, and what I'm hearing from you is that you, throughout your life's journey, you've gone through this self-discovery in all these various fields, and you've seen a lot of indications that animal consumption is the root cause of these things. And you didn't have, you weren't shown that. You had to experience that. You had to see that for yourself. And so you want to provide that education for others. And this is your way of doing that. I think an excellent segue, you know, bring up food injustices. What is the connection between animal rights and human rights?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:That is one of my favorite questions. So for some context, I grew up in Iran. And I'm sure you've heard a lot about Iran nowadays, the protests. And there is a lot of violation of human rights in Iran. So back there, I attended a lot of protests, you know, trying to protect human rights. I even came up, you know, came really close to actually getting killed in one of these protests with a guy, you know, running after me with a machete. But really interestingly, one of my friends once asked me, Faraz, you say you care about, you know, humans, you say you love animals, but you sit down and you eat meat. You eat them. And then I was like, Ouch, how dare you challenging my ethics. And so I was really mad at my friend. But then I, you know, thought about it and I was like, Yeah, I guess I'm being a hypocrite and I need to really fix this. And that was the first, I guess, push for me to start thinking about this. When I started to really study what are the common roots of oppression between humans and animals or human and non-human animals, I think there are two things. One is cognitive dissonance, which is when we say that we love animals, but we sit down and eat them. And the other one is called speciesism, which is basically thinking that humans are superior to other animals. And that gives us the right to basically do whatever we want to do, whatever we want to them. So something that I want to mention here is that this is why I think there is a common root cause between human oppression and animal oppression. Because when you think about humans and human rights, we recognize and acknowledge that we are different, right? We have different races, we have different cultures, we have different even genetics. But we realize that our differences are not morally relevant to the way we should be treated, right? So we acknowledge our differences, but we focus on our similarities to decide whether we deserve to have moral consideration or not. So the question is not what my sexual orientation is. The question is, will I suffer if you oppress me? And the answer is yes. So when it comes to animals, that's the same thing. Animal rights doesn't mean that a cow is identical to a human. All it means is that if you stab me, it hurts. If you stab a dog, it hurts. If you stab a cow, it hurts. In history, every time we focus on our differences, it really ended up in very dark places. That's how we justify racism, sexism and other things by focusing on our differences. And that's why it's so important that when it comes to animals, we appreciate our similarities. That the only relevant question is that, yes, these animals are different than us, but the only morally relevant question is that can they suffer? And the answer is yes.
Dylan Carnahan:One thing that I have seen in my experience is, and I think it's been alluded to throughout our conversation is that one thing is that we're removed from death. I think that's a big part about animal consumption. And I think even human rights violations is that we are not, we're removed from death. We're removed from that violence. It's omitted. It's happening off stage. And I think that makes it very difficult to address a problem when you don't really know there is one. And so, especially, you know, human rights injustices. You know, you just mentioned a personal experience earlier. You were chased with a machete. We don't have a picture of that, right? You know, so, I mean, I believe you, I have your word, you know, but it's really hard to bring something like that into present tense. For someone chased by a machete, I was just at Walmart the other day. You know, what are we talking about? I'm on a Zoom call. I'm at my home. I'm in safety, right? So, I think a lot of that is, you know, that death isn't in the present tense. It's omitted. Really interesting stuff there.
Dr. Faraz Harsini:Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think one reason that people are distanced is that when you buy meat, dairy, egg, all you see is cartoonish animals that are happy. And it's always a cartoon too, or just like, you know, isolated cases. But if you really look at, you know, whether it's done, you know, I guess, quote unquote, humanely or not, do you think any animal is smiling when they're on a line to be slaughtered? Because these animals have cognitive ability too, maybe not as much as us, but they can recognize their, they can smell blood. They're literally in a slaughterhouse. They're afraid, right? And do you think these animals are literally just smiling and are happy? Of course not. Everyone who looks at slaughterhouses is disgusted. There's a reason we don't take our children for like a slaughterhouse trip, because if we do, they're just going to be traumatized, right? But then when you go to a grocery store, what you see is all these happy animals, all these humane washing, that don't worry, we kill them with compassion, without pain or whatever. So that is exactly why I feel morally responsible to talk about this and bring awareness to this, because otherwise it's hidden from people.
Dylan Carnahan:Exactly. You have to discuss it just to bring others' awareness to your level. And that's exactly what you're trying to do with your organization. And that's definitely an objective of this conversation we're having. So as the founder of ASAP, what kind of tie, thread the needle here for you, what makes you excited about cultivated meat?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:Well, I think, you know, for all the problems that I mentioned so far, as an individual, the best thing that we can do is to go plant-based or vegan. But in terms of technology and, you know, our food system, we need better solutions. So these two have to happen together. So people have to have personal responsibility the same way that we are doing, hopefully, recycling and other things. But we are also coming up with better alternatives for plastic. But we also can't wait until we have that. So right now, we recycle, but we are also working on the technology. So same thing is here. So I think the best thing that we can do in individual level is to go plant-based. But in terms of technology, we also have to revolutionize it, because our food system is not going to last. It's not going to work. It's by definition unsustainable, meaning that we have to come up with a better alternative. And I think cultivated meat is one of the best alternatives that we have. And that's what excites me, because I care about people, I care about the environment, and I care about animals. So it's literally the cross-section of everything that I care about. And I'm sure it's not me. I'm sure most people care about at least one of the three things I mentioned.
Dylan Carnahan:Now, I'll throw this on here as well. As someone that, I mean, you're a bioprocessing scientist at the Good Food Institute. You're as close as an expert you can get on this topic. What, from your perspective, what is the future of cultivated meat? What does that look like?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:The future of cultivated meat is that you're going to have your bacon, steak, fish, or whatever kind of meat that you desire at your disposal. You can buy them in groceries. You can buy them in any restaurants. And in that future where you can have meat without any of the suffering, without any of the environmental impacts, automatically there would be no need to harm animals anymore. So I see that as a very kind and compassionate and sustainable future where we have this amazing technology to help us, you know, to just live in a kind and just society. And sustainable, because if we really care about, you know, our children, then we've got to make sure that we are not ruining this planet for them.
Dylan Carnahan:Absolutely. Absolutely. How do people find out more about you and the work you do?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:So they can check my website or Allied Scholars website, which is alliedscholars.org, or find me on social media. It's also listed on the website. But I just want to say that, you know, I often help people with their careers. I just want to say that, you know, there is an overwhelming amount of data from Harvard, Stanford, Science Magazine, American Heart Association, American Dietetic Association, et cetera, that reducing or eliminating animal products is the best thing to prevent early morbidity and mortality, and also to prevent further environmental catastrophes. So given that, I'm really interested in helping younger people, you know, generation to find careers or virtually anyone to use their skills to help us to revolutionize our food system, because it impacts literally all of us. So I just want to say that if there is anything that I can do for anyone, people are free to reach out to me, and if they need help to switch careers and what to do, what not. Or if they want to start an Allied Scholars chapter in their universities, please feel free to contact me. I'm here to help.
Dylan Carnahan:Fantastic. Now, to those people that are, hey, I'm listening to this podcast, I'm getting exposed to this topic. I didn't have that background. We're talking about some very interesting things, and they're thinking, how can I get involved? So what can people do to make sure that we're going to have a sustainable food system?
Dr. Faraz Harsini:So like I mentioned, one of the best personal decisions that anyone can make tonight is by going plant-based and doing research on that to realize why. So don't trust anything I said. Look them up by yourself. So that's on an individual level. But know that whatever your major career skill set is, you can devote that to revolutionizing our food system. I'll just give you one example, because a lot of people are studying the computer sciences, and you may wonder, like, how can I use my computer sciences in the food industry? But with cultivated meat, we need a lot of computer science people to come up with simulation of bioreactors, for instance. So I don't want to go to the details, but there is a lot of meat for software engineers, computer science folks to program and basically simulate bioreactors. So that's one way to do. So literally, it doesn't matter what you're doing. There is some room for you to contribute.
Dylan Carnahan:Doesn't matter what it is. Whatever inherent skill set you have, it's applicable to make a difference. And I think you've shown that exactly throughout your life story here. And you've really drilled down and you have a strong conviction about the impacts of animal consumption. So I really appreciate Dr. Harsini going through, educating us and providing your knowledge and time today. Thank you very much. That wraps up our conversation with Dr. Faraz Harsini. We talked about the obstacles cultivated meat production faces, the importance of a sustainable food system, and ways animal consumption impacts our world. Go to the show notes for this episode to view all the amazing resources and sources Dr. Harsini mentioned during this episode. Do not forget to listen to Blue by Fresh of Breath Air on Apple Music or Spotify. And lastly, subscribe to the Simple Questions Podcast to get notified when our latest episodes are released. Thank you for listening, and remember to keep asking questions.