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What Is Aphantasia?
Tom Ebeyer • 2023-04-04
Dylan Carnahan:Welcome to the Simple Questions Podcast. This is your host, Dylan Carnahan. You're listening to Face the Beast by The Whatnots. The Whatnots are a prog funk duo formed by longtime bandmates, Matt Range and Chris Blos. The two played together for many years in the thriving Columbia, Missouri music scene in the mid to late aughts. The two now live in Kansas City, Missouri and Bethesda, Maryland respectively, and have reunited through home studios to continue their musical journeys together. Technology overcomes distance and creativity lives on in the form of this collaboration with equal parts euphemous rhythm and intricate composition. The question for this episode is, what is Aphantasia? You will learn in this episode the history of Aphantasia, the spectrum of visual imagination and what hyperphantasia means. Our guest is one of the original 21 cases identified by Dr. Adam Zeman as having Aphantasia and is the co-founder of the Aphantasia Network, which has a mission to improve the lives of people with Aphantasia through advocacy, research and support to unleash the power of image-free thinking. I introduce to you Tom Ebeyer. Thank There was a conversation on this podcast several episodes ago with Jared Chang Zeisel, and he was the author or co-author of A Field Guide to Lucid Dreaming. Lucid dreaming, for those that don't know, is an experience where you become present in your dream, and that allows you to control your dream. There is someone that's very close to me, one of the brightest people that I have in my life, that we were talking about dreaming, Tom, just chatting it up about dreaming in the wake of this podcast episode. That person divulged that how they dreamt was through talking to themselves. In elaborating, they discussed how they didn't see anything in their dreams. And we had a hard time communicating about those dreams, this dream experience. It wasn't until we talked further that it became apparent that they didn't see images in their waking world as well. That enabled me to go ahead and do some researching on whatever is the most relevant way to research in the time that you're listening to this podcast, ChatGPT or Google, something to that effect. And that's when I came across the Aphantasia Network and Aphantasia as a topic. And that's led to our discussion today. Before we get into anything, there are people that are gonna be reading the title of this podcast. There are people that are gonna be hearing us talk, Tom, and they're gonna go, how do you say that? So for the record, Aphantasia, or I've also heard Aphantasia, it's another way to say it.
Tom Ebeyer:It's probably somewhere between Aphantasia and Aphantasia. It's more like a tomato, tomato in terms of pronunciation on that. But really it comes from the root word, fantasia is the word that Aristotle used to describe the power of imagination, the ability to conjure up things that aren't present to your senses, to conjure them up in your mind. That's fantasia. And so Aphantasia denotes an absence of that ability. And so that's actually, so Aphantasia will be the technically correct way that most people will say it.
Dylan Carnahan:Right from the horse's mouth, folks. Thank you for clarifying that. I know there are many people that are gonna go, and it's a little bit difficult to begin a conversation if the topic is a little... Exactly. So we're gonna get to, you know, you gave us a brief little overview. You cracked the door open for us, Tom here. I'm gonna hit you with the crazy question, which is what is Aphantasia?
Tom Ebeyer:Well, similar to the story you kind of just opened up with there, Aphantasia is the inability to experience mental images in a wakeful state. So if I ask you to think of a horse, most people are gonna conjure some type of image of a horse in their mind's eye. That horse could be brown or black, standing in a field or on a racetrack. That will largely be based on their personal experience. If you grew up with horses, you know, you're gonna see that horse in your mind's eye. For people with Aphantasia, they don't see the image of the horse. They only have the thought or the concept. We're talking about horses. I can tell you lots of characteristics about horses. I can tell you that, you know, it's a mammal with four legs and has these sorts of characteristics. But there's no visual representation of that object in my mind's eye. So instead of thinking in pictures, like most people, it's more about thinking in language, thinking in concepts. And it's actually not just limited to the visual sense. Visual is the most popular because it's the easiest to understand, but it can extend to all of the mental senses. So if I ask you to think of your favorite song, some people can actually hear the sound of the instrument in their mind. They actually hear the quality of the sound. I could maybe hum to the rhythm of the music, but I don't actually hear the sound. And so, yeah, it extends to everything from taste and touch and all the mental senses.
Dylan Carnahan:It's very, very interesting. So at this point, if you're listening to this, you're probably in one of two camps, relatively speaking, right? You're saying, hey, yeah, when I hear the word horse, I see a horse or I could do that. As you're saying, I grew up with a stallion named, I don't know, and I kind of think of her. Or maybe you're like thinking kind of more in the lane of Tom, right? And it sounds like you're saying it's almost word association.
Tom Ebeyer:It's a good way to think about it. It's really concept driven. It's like, even though I can't see the picture of the horse, I know what horses are. So this is why for many people, there might be people listening right now who are just discovering, they're like, wait, what do you mean other people actually see in pictures? And that's because you don't necessarily need those images to understand what a horse is, understand what you mean when you're talking to me about horses. And so it's like the way I like to describe Aphantasia, it's kind of like a trait variation. Some people tend to see it as you're lacking something, and so maybe it falls into a disadvantage or one of those kinds of categories, but really what the research has kind of shown is that it's more just a variation in experience rather than something that's a detriment to productivity or functioning, which is why many people might be just learning about it for the first time.
Dylan Carnahan:Exactly. And there also is this aspect that it's around human experience, which is inherently subjective. And it's also difficult to have that topic even come up. I mean, how often are you casually talking to someone and you're like, yeah, you know, when I read and I hallucinate to a certain extent and I see the main protagonist in my head and then the other person's like, I don't know what you're talking about. When they say red door in the book, I don't see a red door, right? It's very, like that conversation's not arising much, right?
Tom Ebeyer:Exactly.
Dylan Carnahan:I want to get...
Tom Ebeyer:Just on that, not only do we not really talk about these differences in our subjective experience, even when language comes up that might kind of point to it, it can be misinterpreted. So most people that I talk to when they're like, my whole life, when people talked about counting sheep when they're trying to fall asleep, they didn't know that they literally meant see the sheep. They took it more as a metaphor, picture this is kind of like a saying that people will use, not knowing that they're actually meaning to see a picture, they're just meaning like a concept, like think about it. And so the language has different meanings for different people. And then that adds another layer of abstraction, which is why so many people don't discover. I've heard from people in like their 70s who are just learning about, they've gone their whole life not knowing that people around them are visualized. So it's great for opportunities like this, because the more we talk about those individual differences, the more people can learn and discover about themself.
Dylan Carnahan:Absolutely. The self-discovery is important. The communication aspect is important. As you're highlighting, there are things that are said that resonate differently with other people. And there is language that will get into kind of commonality and things of that nature, but predominantly people don't have that. Therefore, you're gonna be subjected and exposed to metaphors and things of that nature that have a different meaning for you than maybe what everyone else thinks of when they hear that. So let's get into, we stunned our audience. Some of you are going that I can't picture a horse, I can, but let's bring everybody back and let's have Tom here touch on a couple contextual things surrounding this. So I know that you have some involvement to a degree with this, but I wanna ask how was Aphantasia discovered? What's the discovery aspect of what we're discussing?
Tom Ebeyer:So great question. It was, there was the first ever mention in sort of the academic literature of someone not being able to visualize, it goes back to like 1880 to this Sir Francis Galton who wrote it kind of off as an offhanded remark in one of his pieces of work. And it basically went undiscussed until 2015. So that's very recent and quite a large gap between those two points. And I think that case maybe started around 2013. There was a gentleman who, he was a land surveyor in the UK and he reported losing the ability to visualize after, I believe he had a stroke during heart surgery. And so he woke up from that heart surgery and all through his life relied on visualization in his work as a main method of completing those tasks. And without that ability, it was obviously a shocking experience for him. He reached out to a doctor in the UK called Dr. Adam Zeman. He was at Exeter University at the time. And Dr. Zeman took a real personal interest in the case. And he wrote just about this man I found who is describing this experience. And that led to about 21 people from around the world reaching out to that doctor, myself included. I was one of those original 21 who basically said, hey, I've never been able to visualize like this guy's explaining. And that's really kind of how the whole thing got started. From there, Dr. Zeman wrote a paper, basically defining the term Aphantasia for the first time in the academic literature, which led to a frenzy of news media and articles and blogs and people discovering that they too fit into this camp. So really we're talking about a relatively new phenomenon in terms of public understanding and language to describe this, but a longer history obviously of this existing.
Dylan Carnahan:It's extremely interesting that this is, again, as you mentioned, relatively new. I mean, when you hear a date like 2015, right? That's, you know, we think we know everything, right? You know, as you mentioned, this has, this is something that has been documented, that experiences with Aphantasia, but the research, the understanding, it's an ongoing process that's just started. So you may hear Tom and I maybe not be able to disclose or answer something with 100% certainty. And I think that goes to, as a testament to the ongoing understanding that everyone's trying to get surrounding this. I want to, before I really interested about your personal experiences, before we get to that, I want to uncover some things, just some quick facts here. So how common is Aphantasia?
Tom Ebeyer:There's an estimated range between like a half of a percent of the population. The highest estimate I've seen is up to like four and a half percent. So that's a pretty big range. It depends on like, just back to that previous point, it's like not everyone agrees even on the full definition or where's that cutoff point for, do you have Aphantasia or not? Like what if you just have a little flicker of some black and white shapes in your mind? Like should that count as Aphantasia? So there's some like a debate around where that cutoff point is, which is why you'll probably see such a variance in that number. But if you want to go like strict, no images in all the senses, then you're probably looking at something like the half to 1% for the most extreme of cases. There's also, there's a little bit of a bigger percentage on the other end of the spectrum. So we're not talking about simply the ability to visualize or not. This ability to experience sensory phenomenon in your mind really ranges from that complete absence like me to an abundance of imagery. In the extreme cases, people being unable to almost determine if it actually happened or if they just imagined it. So there really is a wide range. And it does look like there's more people on the upper end of that range in some cases.
Dylan Carnahan:So it's not just black and white. It's not just, you can visualize all senses, right? Or no, there is a variability in that. There's a spectrum, as you put it. And in fact, there are people that have hyper aphantasia. If I'm not mistaken, which is what you're...
Tom Ebeyer:Exactly, hyper aphantasia would be the opposite end of that spectrum.
Dylan Carnahan:And these people are able to have, in some instances, difficulty discerning what they were visualizing between that and what they're experiencing because of how vivid things are.
Tom Ebeyer:Exactly, exactly. There's even cases of people having the ability to project their imagery into 3D space. So being able to actually see somebody like they're sitting beside you, even though they're not there, they're using their imagination to kind of fill in the perceptual world with imaginary things. And so there is really a wide spectrum of ability. And the research around it really still is in a very early stage in terms of how do we think about these differences and then so what, what do these differences actually mean in our daily life and our work and our well-being? And those really are the categories that our work here at Aphantasia Network are really the most passionate about because when you make these discoveries, many people believe, oh, I can't visualise and so maybe I shouldn't be an artist or I can't do this. And that really doesn't pan out. There are some really great, very creative artists and mathematicians and people in a whole bunch of sectors and professions that you'd be surprised, you know, that they can do such a great job without imagery. So yeah, really, really interesting.
Dylan Carnahan:As we mentioned earlier, this is a subjective experience, right? It's not as tangible as far as there's no way to record what you're thinking in your mind. We also have this aspect of the barriers to communicate about that, whether because it's hard to relay that or because that topic doesn't get breached. And again, this topic from a scientific perspective has really gotten visibility since 2015, so there's just a lot going on. And Tom, there were a couple of things that were alluded to when you spoke about the research being done. You mentioned lifelong aphantasia, and then you also mentioned the case study of a gentleman who had a stroke that had caused it. So can you speak a little bit about how the distinction between the two and how that comes into maybe that percentage of people we discussed?
Tom Ebeyer:Yeah, there's certainly two different types of cases here. There are cases where people lose the ability to visualize. This could be because of physical brain damage in the case of like a stroke or even some cases of being more trauma related, psychological in nature. And what are the percentages of these and why are they caused still too early to confidently say? I think it's fair to assume that the cases of losing imagery are likely a little more difficult to deal with because they haven't, they haven't learned the other techniques or the adaptations that someone who's kind of grown up like that their whole life would have. And so we do hear from people who maybe have a little bit of a harder time with that on the acquired front, which makes complete sense to me. We've actually seen a few papers, maybe one or two of cases where people are regaining the ability to visualize if they've lost it. So not in the congenital cases like me where they never had it, but if it was maybe trauma induced or something like this. Not promising anyone there was a cure or anything like that, but there are a few cases of the imagery being restored after certain types of intervention, which is interesting as well. So why these differences between people who had congenitally like from birth versus some people acquiring them. We had more intel on that, but it's just kind of an interesting thing worthy of further investigation for sure. Yeah.
Dylan Carnahan:Again, a common theme, but I appreciate you kind of walking through that. And I would think, you know, as the gentleman, I mean, there is two things right there you kind of brought up. There's the first aspect, if you had a stroke during a heart surgery, it might be a little easier to discern how you acquired aphantasia, right? Whereas if you have, and then you also have this aspect of, as you mentioned, there's a loss, right? You've been, this individual has been using, this is an intricate part of their profession. This is an intangible skill that gave them an advantage, and they no longer have it. And now what do you do? There's kind of that aspect. And I want to get to you, Tom, because, you know, this is, you know, your story is something that will resonate with people, especially that have aphantasia. So I want to ask this because you mentioned that you've had lifelong aphantasia. And I'll tell a quick anecdote, which is when I was a child, I had two very close friends. Joseph and Harrison. And both Joseph and Harrison had an older sibling. And I had an older sibling. Therefore, I thought everyone had an older sibling. So I could see that there's an aspect of this is just how I am. I've never known anything different. And then you find out. So I want to know, Tom, how did you find out that you had aphantasia?
Tom Ebeyer:Well, I was in my 20s at university, and I'd come home from a party with my girlfriend from the time. And she had said a comment to me that just really stuck out. And I can't tell you why this stuck with me so hard. But we'd seen a mutual friend that we hadn't seen in maybe like a year. And she said, oh, Joanne was wearing the same thing she was wearing when we saw her last year. And I was just like, how do you remember what she was wearing last year? I didn't get it. And she said, she's like, oh, I just, you know, I see the picture in my mind. And I was just so confused. And honestly, from that moment, I was obsessed. I just like, you know, would ask anyone who would give me the time of day, do you see pictures in your mind? What do you mean by that? Trying to get people to describe their experience. This was probably back in like 2010. So people, there was basically nothing online, you know, like I was down that Google rabbit hole as far as I could get. And, you know, all there was at the time was like, oh, maybe just meditate and visualize, you know, or, you know, stare at a candle, and then you'll see the pictures. And I kind of like these type of things. So I would definitely fall into that camp at the time that, yeah, I felt different. Like this is what everyone around me that I'm talking to can do this thing that I can't do. And it's actually very easy to romanticize it. It can permeate through so many different aspects of life. You know, when you think about memories of your past and being able to re-experience those in your mind, or to imagine what you want to be when you grow up, or where you'll be in 10 years. You know, when people, when they start to understand what people were doing when they were asking the question, they were in a way experiencing that. They were seeing it, they were putting themselves there, like a form of mental time travel. And that definitely felt a little bit, like it was a little unfair, you know, cheated, that these other people were doing this thing that I couldn't do. It was, yeah, a couple years later, when I found Dr. Zeman and the research around it started. That's about, you know, I bought aphantasia.com, you know, just shortly after that, because people from all around the world started reaching out to me personally on Facebook and LinkedIn and things asking like, you know, I can't visualize either, and what do you do? Like a bunch of questions we didn't know the answer to. It wasn't, honestly, maybe till about five years ago, when my mindset and philosophy about everything's changed, because what I didn't have then that I understand now is that imagery is a double-edged sword. People don't necessarily control all the images that they see in their mind. Imagery can be involuntary. Meaning, if you've had a really bad experience, a nasty breakup, some personal trauma in your life, it can be hard to actually let go of those images. Those images can hold you back. There's lots of areas, and we could get into that if it's interesting, but there's lots of areas where imagery might be an area where things like biases are pronounced and a number of other kind of things that don't occur in the imagery mind. And so, like everything, there's pros and cons, and this is sort of the message now. Something I believe deeply is that your beliefs can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. And so, if you believe it's a negative thing, you'll tend to look for areas where it's deficient or where you can't do something, and that's like a self-reinforcing loop. And the opposite is true as well. There are strengths and advantages, and if you look and believe that that's the case, more of those will show themselves. And so, it's been an interesting journey, and it's connected me with very interesting people all around the world. We've heard from people, you know, from Los Angeles to Madagascar to South Korea, like, this is a human thing. Many people are just discovering it for themselves for the first time, you know, in large part due to interviews like this. And I think that's a really, you know, awesome, awesome kind of development, not just for the Aphantasics who are discovering this about themselves, but, you know, just for the intellectually curious, because what Aphantasia really points to is the fact that we do have a different subjective experience. In a way, it's not abstract, like personality or some of the other things, in a kind of tangible way, like you know if you see images in your mind or not. So it's this dork-o-matic cognition, thinking about your own thinking. And I think everyone can benefit from that.
Dylan Carnahan:Absolutely. You sharing your personal experiences is greatly appreciated. It's understandable to feel some frustration hearing that. It's understandable to go, these people are doing what? That's not something that I've experienced. And to feel frustrated about that, it makes perfect sense. And could not agree more with your assessment, belief is a powerful thing. And if you believe you've been wronged, or you believe that you're inadequate, you have, as you put it, there's this echo chamber, and you just pick up on that. And you really are an owner of your emotions, and there's no reason to subject yourself to that belief system. So thank you very much for sharing that journey, because I'm sure there are many people through being exposed to this podcast episode, or who have recently found that out, and they were just like you, Tom, Circuit 2010, and they're researching all this, and they're to hear that journey that is impactful. And I want to ask you as well, have you discussed with those who have vivid imaginations or visual recall, how your difference impacts communication between the two of you?
Tom Ebeyer:Yeah, it's a great, great question. I think, I'm just going to think out loud here on this one, but it's this, I'm going to loop it back to the horse. When we're talking, I do that because the horse is a very simple example of an object, and you can take that and extrapolate to more complex ideas and, you know, complex topics. But when I said think of a horse, people thought about different horses. Some people thought of a race horse. Some people thought of a horse standing in a field. You know, some people thought of a plow horse. That's based on their past experience. And so when I say horses, it's being experienced differently in different people's minds. And so that's kind of the frame of reference that they're using to interpret the conversation. And so, you know, without images, it's still at that concept kind of level. And so you can see how that mismatch in perception of even what the words mean for different people can lead to people being on different pages. Like I can only, you know, I'm going to use air quotes, imagine that, you know, two people with very vivid imaginations talking about the same thing might be experiencing something completely different in their minds. And so even though they're using the same words, they're experiencing something different. And so even though they agree on something, what, you know, in terms of language, what they're agreeing on in their minds, I might be actually very different. And so this is like a really interesting area, you know, you can get quite philosophical, but this idea that, you know, that language evokes imagery, and that is based on person, that's a subjective experience, you know, means that you need more robust or accurate language to, you know, really get deeper in terms of what you mean. And so this is, yeah, anyways, that's a little ramble on that, if it makes sense.
Dylan Carnahan:I think there's definitely something to pull from that, you know, great analogy. I think right at the end there, you know, firstly, as you said, some, you know, I say donuts, some people go, crispy cream, glazed donut, other people are thinking, you know, donut with chocolate and sprinkles, right? We have that distinction. We come to agreement, we shake hands, you know, we got two different images in our mind. And I think you're saying that the concept of a word bringing an image to someone's mind, that it's helpful if there are more details given verbally, because there isn't that accompanying image. Is that correct?
Tom Ebeyer:Yeah, because you can go the other way. Like if you were to say, okay, donut, like I'm still at the donut phase. I haven't chosen a Krispy Kreme or, you know, a chocolate place. So I won't be disappointed. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because my expectations haven't been set, right? But in Michael, the other way, where I'll say donut to somebody and they have a particular donut in mind, and then I bring the Krispy Kreme, they were thinking, you know, Boston cream, and they're disappointed because, you know, I said donut and they didn't get what they wanted. And so, you know, that's, that's, you know, one thing where I notice, you know, I'm now more aware of those type of, you know, interactions than I probably would be if I weren't kind of in space.
Dylan Carnahan:And I think honestly, what just happened was a perfect example. I evoked these two images in my mind that I'm speaking to. And then from your perspective, you're like, yeah, donut. Like, you know, like these associations that I made seem so, it is, it's abstract. I mean, frankly, it just is this abstract thing. So you have that ability book, right? Does that, is that something that you, again, you like that additional detail given, say, in a book, to help you further understand? I guess I'm trying to see, you know, I think for me when reading, again, I get, I read the the red door with the old paint that was cracking. And that draws a specific image. So I'm trying to think, is that, what is the entertainment value or how do you approach, you know, that type of literature?
Tom Ebeyer:Yeah, there's definitely personal preferences on this one, because I've had lots of conversations about this with even with different Aphantasias. Some fall in that camp where they like the detail, because it really helps them kind of conceptualize the scene and what's going on. Myself, I fall more on the like, you know, too much detail becomes irrelevant kind of filler, whereas I'm and again, what kind of abstracts the whole conversation is like, it's very hard to determine where is the line between like personality and Aphantasia. Like Aphantasia is just kind of one thing between, you know, a mix of things that makes you a human being. And so, you know, personally, though, I'm more drawn to things like nonfiction that are more based on like ideas and concepts. You know, I like some, I like the fiction books that are deeply rooted in maybe like a philosophical idea or there's really a meaning or message to take away from it. But that's just like, like, I don't know how much of that is Aphantasia and how much of that is just like, you know, my personal preferences. Hard to say.
Dylan Carnahan:Absolutely. You know, it's just, it's, yeah, there's definitely, there's a whole cross tabulation. There's a lot going on.
Tom Ebeyer:Exactly.
Dylan Carnahan:And this is a very dynamic thing with a lot of variables. So you mentioned this earlier, but what cognitive strategies do you use to remember things?
Tom Ebeyer:So there's different kinds of memory. So there is, you know, like what we know, maybe I'll start with what is generally, we're rather poor at, and this is not just personal, this is fact by research. Seems like aphantasics are a little worse at autobiographical memory, which is memory of your own past events, your own life experience. So no, I can't vividly relive my past. So I know general, I can describe to you what has happened, what I've done, things that have happened to me. But they're like facts, like the same way I know the earth was around the sun. It's a fact. I'm not, when I'm describing it, I'm not putting myself back there. I'm not re-experiencing it in any kind of meaningful way. And that does seem to be the case for many with Aphantasia. Other I tend to, and I think this is common, the concepts and ideas generally, you know, memory is pretty good with those types of things. There's a direct relationship between attention and memory. So you know, if someone were to ask me, like now I'm pointing it out, like, you know, you're sitting on this cool kind of black gaming chair with some white rim right behind you. Like now that I've paid attention to it and I've said it, I'll remember that if someone were to ask me to read with the kind of chair. But if I didn't point it out, if I didn't make a particular note about it in my mind, I totally would not be able to answer that question. So same thing for people's hair colour or eyes or so, you know, if I go out for lunch with somebody and I come home and I'm asked, oh, you know, like, you know, what colour shirt was the person wearing? It's like, you should have asked me that before I went and then I would have paid attention and then, you know, I'd remember. So, that's a really interesting kind of pattern that I think is common among the Aphantasics.
Dylan Carnahan:That is the the attention aspect is very important. Now this is going to be a naive question. When recalling, oh my goodness, the woman had blonde hair, right? Once you've verbalized that out, is it seems like almost rote memorization of that fact or concept that commits that to memory?
Tom Ebeyer:100%, because I'm not re-experiencing it, so it can only be re-expressed in facts, in language. And so, you know, it's different, like the very idea of memory for people. I think, you know, from my perspective, just talking to people about the topic, the very concept of memory is imagery driven for people. When they're remembering something, they're visualizing. Those things are inherently linked, one equals the other. Whereas, you know, for me, it goes back to that concept, to those facts. And so, you know, like even people very close to me, if you ask me, like, what do they look like? I can tell you general facts about them. I can, you know, they're about six feet, blonde hair, blue eyes. I can give you characteristics, but because I can't see it or re-experience it, it's really limited to those characteristics or facts.
Dylan Carnahan:That's extremely intriguing. Going back to the autobiographical memory, right? That's almost self-narration, if you will, of your life. That inability to vividly go back to the past, to recall that event, without that, it would be like... It was just, as you put it, a fact or a concept. So it's almost like a story you've memorized to an extent. I was in third grade in Ms. Brindner's class and I didn't feel well, and this happened. And it's kind of that fact that you've committed. And instead of going back and seeing that classroom, it's more the rehearsal of the language of what that event was.
Tom Ebeyer:Dylan, you got it perfect. That was a great explanation of how it's experienced.
Dylan Carnahan:Thank you for that. I just really, really want to hit on that to empathize and understand how, you know, I mean, it's fascinating. And, you know, this is how your experiences are important, Tom, and the people that have Aphantasia, their experiences are important. So we went back earlier. We mentioned this concept of a spectrum, right? With concepts, it's really easy if, you know, you just said, hey, you know, you're a hyperphantasiac, you have Aphantasia. That's it. We got two camps. You know, it's just easy peasy, Tom. We could wrap it up. But we have a spectrum and we got all these other senses. So for those that are hearing our conversation, how could they discover where they're at on this spectrum?
Tom Ebeyer:Well, that's a great lineup for me there. So we have been working on something called the imagination spectrum. We've been working with psychologists, neurologists, psychometrics people, which are people who kind of design surveys to really to build an instrument that kind of puts people on that imagination spectrum. You'll find it at imaginationspectrum.com and it's basically like this, like a test that you'll take that will put you on a spectrum for each one of those senses. So visual, your vision, auditory, olfactory, and gustatory, which is smell and taste, tactile, which is your feeling of touch. So, you know, can you imagine running your hand down like a brick wall and feeling what that's like, like on your skin? You know, some people can do that, and some people actually make decisions, you know, about their personal environment based on, you know, the feeling of textures in the room. So some people are very, you know, tactile dominant, and motor is the last one, which is movement. So, you know, you'll often hear about people being like maybe athletes training in their sport from home. They're imagining what it's like to move, you know, to take a shot from the three-point line. They're really feeling their body make those movements, even though they're standing still. And so we have, you know, a range of capabilities in all these domains. And we're really on a mission to not only be able to, you know, identify what your imagery profile looks like in these different senses, but then the next step is really to say, okay, so what? You know, does this particular imagery profile maybe lend you better to different types of careers or different modes of learning or different wellness practices? You know, we're very early. Like you said, Aphantasia was only discovered in 2015. You know, the public's just kind of catching on to these several different things. But I believe that, you know, more personal insight into this domain will really have the potential to unlock a lot of hidden human potential. And that's kind of, you know, my main why, why I'm doing this.
Dylan Carnahan:Absolutely. You know, although the discussion is early with this topic, although there is not much known, it runs through so many things, so many things. I want to ask, you know, we mentioned a little bit, but of dreaming, how does dreaming occur? What is your experience when dreaming?
Tom Ebeyer:Yeah, just like, just like the story you opened with here, I dream, actually recently I feel like I've been dreaming every night, but I don't dream in pictures. I dream in thoughts and I dream in concepts. I dream usually in first person, so like I'm talking to myself like I would be when I was awake. The thing that's hard to understand, and I'm, you know, even still personally, wrap my mind around it, is me in my dream will recognize and respond to visual cues. So I'll be like, Hey, you know, look at that purple wall, and I'll know that's what I'm looking at, but I don't actually consciously experience it. I don't actually see it. I just know in a dream that I saw that distinction makes sense. And so that's, yeah, that's a really fascinating area. Dream research is really fascinating, but it does seem like there are some Aphantasics who do visually experience dreams, and they know it. And they know that they had visual experiences, but when they wake up, they just can't re-visualize them. And there's others like me who are like, no, I don't remember at all seeing visuals in my dreams.
Dylan Carnahan:Again, that spectrum. So there are a subsect of people that in their waking world are not able to conjure images. But once they go to bed, they do have the ability to have visual dreams as well. It's just a whole other dimension there, Tom. You know, human experience, right? That kind of runs through. Wholeheartedly agree with, again, I think there's a book I read recently, Moonwalking with Einstein. It's about these people that do memory competitions. And how they use POA, person, action, object, and they have all these combinations, and they conjure an image like Michael Jordan playing a ukulele while karate punching. And they go, oh, yeah, that's 72. And they use these images.
Tom Ebeyer:Yeah, this memory power idea where they put things away in different rooms. Yeah, it's very interesting how imagery can get utilized in these kind of different contexts. Really, really fascinating stuff.
Dylan Carnahan:It certainly is. Tom, what studies are ongoing surrounding Aphantasia currently?
Tom Ebeyer:Yeah, lots of ongoing research. Actually, that original paper I mentioned, Congenital Aphantasia, was published in 2015. It's still, or at least last I looked, was still in the top 5% of new research interest, according to a website called Altmetric, which measures the popularity of research. And so there's lots of research going on in different domains. Some of the most interesting, from my point of view, are things like objective measurement. It looks like we can actually identify whether or not you're visualizing based on psychological responses. So, for example, if you read a scary story, you know, just, you know, on a page, your hair might actually stand up. Your skin might get a little more sweaty because you're picturing that scary story, whereas that won't happen for me. So there's actually a different physiological response. There are other things like we can tell that your pupil changes. If you're visualizing bright beams of light in your mind, whereas mine might not. So there's some really interesting work around these physiological markers because that helps lay, you know, a stronger case for the skeptics that this isn't just subjective. There's actually something different here that we can measure. There's lots of interesting work going on around things like, you know, around impacts on things like career, well-being, every kind of thing that you can think about. Somebody's, I've heard about somebody who's looking at memory, you know, different memory techniques, you know, for people with Aphantasia. Yeah, you know, just, yeah, just so much. Yeah, again, the memory thing, maybe I'll stop my ad, there's more that I know that I'm missing. But yeah, very, it's a really burgeoning field. It's great to see so much research. And it's like not all centered in one jurisdiction. We have research going on everywhere from, you know, the US., Europe, to Japan, and you know, kind of all over. So that's also very cool to see.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, it'll be a lot, it'll be interesting to see what comes about through these very studies and the more discussions that come up surrounding this. And that leads me to what is the Aphantasia Network?
Tom Ebeyer:Well, you know, we got the Aphantasia Network started because I didn't want other people to have that experience that I had, which is feeling lost and alone and confused when they discovered that they're different from everybody else. And so, you know, we built a community for people who want to understand what it means to not visualize, to communicate with other people who are going through a similar experience. You know, so we publish, you know, a lot of content, articles, you know, thought pieces. We facilitate lots of research. We have great research connections all over the world. And so great opportunities for people to participate in research if they want to lead to contribute to, you know, new science. And, you know, that main drive around understanding what these individuals, what these individual differences mean for our life, work, and our well-being. And so helping people kind of better align their imagery profile with, you know, improve quality of life. So that's kind of the pitch.
Dylan Carnahan:What can people do to find out more about you and the work you do, Tom?
Tom Ebeyer:aphantasia.com, best place to start. So you'll see, you know, all the content. You can sign up for the newsletters and everything there. You know, I'm on Twitter. I'm not very active, but if anyone wants to act, the Twitter person is at Tom Ebeyer, E-B-E-Y-E-R. And that's a great place to start.
Dylan Carnahan:Tom, thank you for sharing your experiences and time today. It was greatly appreciated.
Tom Ebeyer:Thank you so much. We had a great conversation, and we look forward to speaking to you next time.
Dylan Carnahan:Thanks See Bye. That wraps up our conversation with Tom Ebeyer. We talked about how people with Aphantasia dream, the feelings people can have when discovering they have Aphantasia, and how common Aphantasia is. Go to the show notes for this episode to see the resources Tom mentioned during the episode. Do not forget to listen to Face the Beast by the Whatnots on Apple Music or Spotify. And lastly, subscribe to the Simple Questions Podcast to get notified when our latest episodes are released. Thank you for listening, and remember to keep asking questions.