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What Is Good Design?
Debbie Millman • 2026-01-06
Dylan Carnahan:Welcome to Simple Questions Podcast. This is your host, Dylan Carnahan. The question for this episode is, what is good design? You will learn in this episode, where design shows up in everyday life, what separates good design from great design, and how design has evolved. Our guest is the host of Design Matters, one of the longest running and most downloaded design podcasts in the world. Former president of AIGA, representing and advancing tens of thousands of professional designers and author of multiple best-selling books on branding, creativity, and design thinking. I introduce to you, Debbie Millman. I am 11 years old, and I'm sitting down with a sheet of printing paper, and I'm drawing a cover for a DVD case. I had created a stop motion video and burned it onto a CD, and now I wanted to kind of finish what I created. And that was kind of one of the first things I recall, I kind of creating and designing. So I'm curious, Debbie, how did you first become interested in design?
Debbie Millman:I first became interested in design when I was in college. I was always interested in art and in making things, but I didn't know that design was actually a profession until I was in college and started working on my student newspaper, my senior year of college. And as one of the editors, my responsibility was to put the paper together, which meant design it and suddenly an entirely new universe opened to me in terms of what I thought I might do with the rest of my life.
Dylan Carnahan:So can you elaborate on how you go with kind of being interested in something to then actually making a commitment to a profession? Because that's kind of a big transition.
Debbie Millman:Well, it wasn't so much committing to a profession as it was utilizing any marketable skill I had at the time to make a living. So the only way that I knew how to make something ever so slightly above minimum wage at the time when I graduated was that I was at that point becoming a fairly good drafts person in an old school layout and paste up environment where I could put mechanicals together, I could cut RubyList, I could use a rapidograph and the other various tools that were required back then in old school graphic design times.
Dylan Carnahan:Very practical, very practical.
Debbie Millman:Yes, that was the sole decision making factor because at the time, I really was more hopeful about being either a artist or a writer or both. But again, that wasn't going to help me pay my rent and that was one of, if not the leading factor in getting the kinds of jobs that I did when my career first started.
Dylan Carnahan:Very interesting. Now, I want to go take a step back from the concept of design because that sounds rather abstract. Let's quantify that a little bit. Where do we see design in our world?
Debbie Millman:Dylan, I think we see design in everything. Everything that is intentionally made is designed. I believe that design is intention-making, and that design is something that is about making decisions about anything that we experience in the world. Every way in which we engage with products, with things, with environments, with any type of experience that we have that is outside of our imagination.
Dylan Carnahan:That's very well put. You said intention-making. Can you elaborate on that?
Debbie Millman:We have choices that we make every day about everything. Some choices are almost forced choices in terms of where or how we were born, what we were born into, economic status, class status. Those are often not things that we, that those are things initially that are chosen for us. So we don't choose where to be born or what environment we're in. But as soon as we become conscious beings and have our own autonomy, we are making choices about how we want to live in this world, what we want to engage with, how we want to behave. All of those things are very deliberate choices that we're making. And when we're making deliberate choices, I believe that we are designing the ways in which we want to engage with the world and the ways in which we want to live.
Dylan Carnahan:No, I really like how you put that. What are some examples of design that you admire?
Debbie Millman:Mm, good question. I tend to admire design that is, that feels effortless. It might not be effortless, but it's constructed in a way that the user experience is effortless, or less effortful than in other situations. I like design that makes me feel safe and secure. I like design that is, that feels comfortable. I like design that when I am engaged with it, makes me feel maybe a little bit better about the world than I did before I engaged with it. And they could be really small things. It could be everything from the type of coffee that I'm making or drinking, or the type of clothing that I'm wearing, or the way in which I'm getting to work. These are all things that we're constantly choosing. And the choices that I make, I like to think align with my values and the way that I'd like to be positioned in the world. Most of those things, at this age, I feel like I have ever so slightly more control over than I did when I was younger. But really, most control is an illusion. It's just something that allows me to think that I'm in more control than I actually am in any given moment.
Dylan Carnahan:I really like how you describe this effortless aspect. Can you dive into that a little bit more?
Debbie Millman:Well, if you're online and you're having an effortless experience navigating, that is, in my mind, good design. If you are in a coffee shop and the coffee is made the way that you love it and it's presented to you in a way that feels respectful and honors both the coffee itself and the experience, that's well designed. If I'm opening up my refrigerator and the cool air is made everything inside really fresh and crispy, that's good design. I think that sometimes people confuse good design with expensive or luxury or perhaps an overabundance of something. But I think that effortless doesn't need to be expensive. It just needs to be respectful. And when we design things that respect the human experience and respect respects the dignity of the engagement that anyone has with the product. That's good design.
Dylan Carnahan:When, when you talk about kind of this effortlessness, I kind of envision, you know, a reduction in friction. That's kind of what...
Debbie Millman:Exactly. Mental, emotional, physical, intellectual, all of those frictions going away are part of what I think makes something superior to something else.
Dylan Carnahan:So I can see that that would be identified as maybe a problem or a challenge, reducing friction. And so in that line of thinking, what are some other common design challenges people have to overcome?
Debbie Millman:Design challenges people have to overcome are probably related to what they might not know that design can do, that design can do. So it might be their level of engagement or expertise or education. I'm not entirely sure I fully understand the question beyond that. I mean, obviously, there's always financial parameters, there's always manufacturing parameters, shipping parameters, employment parameters, et cetera. But I'm not sure if you're talking about like very specific supply chain issues or if you're talking more about in the making of, from a more generative manner.
Dylan Carnahan:I was speaking about the latter. However, in kind of walking through that, you touched on several different interesting things like logistics. So I'll defer it to you because that was, again, that was kind of eye opening to kind of hear you walk through that.
Debbie Millman:Well, I think all of those things have to be taken into account. And I think a lot of what it takes to create a successful brand is having a certain robust infrastructure that takes all of those more tactical elements into account when you're making something. It's not just about if you're creating a brand, creating a logo or a product that people are going to hopefully love and want a lot of. It's also a matter of understanding logistics and supply chain and manufacturing and so forth because those things can make or break a product. And we think about what happened during COVID when we had all of those shipping issues. And books couldn't be delivered and we ran out of toilet paper and all sorts of things that suddenly took on a great deal more importance than they would have otherwise. And suddenly things that you don't really think about or that you take for granted, suddenly become front and center in what you're looking for in a supermarket.
Dylan Carnahan:No, that's very true. I'm going back to some of the things that you mentioned that you enjoy about design. It seems like there's a great deal of emotional resonance with these things, like comfort and safety, that play a big role.
Debbie Millman:Well, that's the foundation of, I think, any experience. If you look at Maslow's pyramid of hierarchy, what are the things that we need in order to ultimately be actualized as human? And the bottom rung is safety and security. If you don't have those things, then nothing else matters because you have no foundation in which to layer any other type of experience on. If you don't have safety and security, then what does it matter that you are not able to enjoy some hobbies? It's all a matter of perspective.
Dylan Carnahan:Earlier, you talked about, we were talking about effortlessness, and you brought up when something is done very well, and it has a level of superiority. I guess, what would make the separates, say, good design from great? Where something that's like that, this is sufficient to like, this is excellent. What crosses that threshold?
Debbie Millman:I think there's a couple of things. First and foremost, it's having something that is unique, that provides a unique benefit to the user. It could be a slightly better sense of comfort, some small way of doing something differently in the manufacturing that gives you a competitive edge in a sneaker or in a watch. It might do something that prior to your introducing it wasn't done before. So it's really a matter of looking at, I think, if you think about Michael Porter's definition of strategy, is it doing something differently than others or is it behaving in a different way than others? If you look at something like Starbucks, for example, there were lots and lots of coffee shops before Starbucks, but Starbucks created an environment that made it feel different and was from their perspective, and depending on how you feel about Starbucks, you may or may not agree. But to deliver a superior tasting coffee, that was more in line with what was provided in Italian cafes. That was the original intention. And so when you look at what did Starbucks do differently, well, it really wasn't about creating a coffee shop because there were lots and lots of coffee shops before, but they created an environment where people could sit and hang out and listen to music and have what was considered to be a more sophisticated coffee. So they took existing behaviors and they provided a different way of delivering that experience. If you look back at the first offerings beyond the computer that Apple created, the iPod, for example, it wasn't the iPod that was any different than any other MP3 player at the time in terms of the mechanics. It was that you could have 1000 songs in your pocket via iTunes. And that was the big game changer. So you can do something that hasn't been ever done before, or you can do something that has been done before differently in a more unique manner. So those are the two different ways that you can think about brand creation, value creation. And then there's the way in which a person can make things, and you can be generating meaning with the work that you're making, or you could be manufacturing meaning through the products that you create.
Dylan Carnahan:No, I really appreciate you to bring in those historical examples. I think that really helped contextualize things. You know, in this pursuit for uniqueness or a differentiation, you know, this is a very large journey. And again, this is to a degree abstract. You know, what are some ways that someone can kind of quantify if they've, you know, I want to say if they hit the mark, right, when you're trying to differentiate, we're trying to do something unique. You know, how do you know if you're getting that ambiance in the Starbucks right?
Debbie Millman:Ambiance, yeah, ambiance is just one small aspect of what I would consider to be the attributes of the brand, the iconic assets of a brand. That's not going, that's not necessarily unique. There are lots of wonderful places that you can walk into that have ambiance, but it's the collection of these experiences and these offerings and these attributes that altogether create something that is different from other coffee shops or was different from other coffee shops at that time. Part of the struggle that Starbucks is having is keeping up with being unique, and that is up to the executives within an organization to stay on top of what will be required in order to stay unique, because innovation is always innovating. Innovators are going to innovate. And so because you have something that's innovative when you launch doesn't mean that it's going to stay innovative, because you're always going to have people catching up and trying to surpass you. I mean, at one point, videotapes were unique, cassette tapes were unique. Color television was unique. These things all become table stakes over the course of any period of time.
Dylan Carnahan:No, I enjoy kind of hearing about this maintenance of uniqueness and how that is a challenge in and of itself, right? That doesn't fiat you, feature uniqueness, right? You were just kind of at this moment in time.
Debbie Millman:Right.
Dylan Carnahan:Now, one of the things that I found as a former college baseball player is that the more I knew about the game, you know, baseball is traditionally not a sport a lot of people like to watch, right? But the more I understood about the game, the more appreciation I had for what I was watching, right? As a pitcher, I knew, okay, in this count, he may throw this, and I can kind of see aspects of the game. And you brought up kind of the aspects of a brand. Could you, for a layman, just kind of go through what those are and how, yeah, a little bit of information so we can kind of appreciate that?
Debbie Millman:Well, a brand isn't born from a molecule. A brand is born in the mind of a maker. And that product, that experience, that thing, let's call it a thing because it encompasses everything. That thing has to be crafted. I call that manufacturing. You're manufacturing an experience and meaning through this thing, this vehicle, this entity. First and foremost, you need to know what it is you're making. What am I creating? What am I doing that is going to be different? Because it's not just a matter of being different from other products. Now, in this day and age, you need it to also, if it's going to really resonate with people, create a little bit of a difference in their lives. So it's not just a new flavor of a soft drink or a new flavor of a chip or a new padding in a sneaker. It's how is this brand going to make a difference in my life? So first and foremost, you have this uniqueness. You have to have something that is unique in some way. Now, it could be attitudinally unique. It could be unique in its craft. It could be unique in its delivery system. There's any number of ways that something can be unique. But that's table stakes. That's you can't introduce a new brand that isn't any different from any other brand and expect it to be considered worthwhile. So first it is this thing that you're making. Then you need to create a way for people to understand this thing. So a mark, a system of delivery, a certain cache that you want to be able to manifest. How does it look? How does it feel? How does it smell? How do you wear it? How do you carry it? How do you consume it? Where do you buy it? How do you buy it? How long does it last? I mean, all of these things need to be considered. And then you have to think about how am I going to get other people to believe me when I tell them that this is what it is? And that is your strategic positioning. And that positioning takes you on a journey to creating consensus within any large group of people that all then believe the same thing that you want them to believe about this thing. But then you also have to make sure it delivers all the things that you say it's going to do. And then you get belief. Once you get belief, you get consensus. Consensus can continue to build other consensus. But until you have that trial period and where then everybody agrees that it does the things that you said it was going to do, then you can grow the brand.
Dylan Carnahan:That was incredibly insightful.
Debbie Millman:Thank you, I hope so. Thank you.
Dylan Carnahan:I appreciate that explanation. In thinking about, I guess I'm curious, and I know you've spoken on this before, but I guess how has design evolved? Because again, this seems to do a lot with, I guess, people's behavior and having other people buy in.
Debbie Millman:So what is the question? How does behavior evolve?
Dylan Carnahan:Or how has design evolved? I'll just open that up generally.
Debbie Millman:Well, design has evolved enormously through technology. That's probably the biggest way in which the methodology of crafting design has shifted. I'm probably the last generation of people that were taught first and foremost on a drafting table. Now, you're taught in front of the screen. And I'm glad I have both of those abilities, because I think that the old school hands-on ways in which we previously did things does impact how you approach doing something that's much more technologically driven. I think that advertising, social media, promotion, PR, all of that influences the way that people think about design and view design. But I don't know that it necessarily changes how design is crafted. But I think design has evolved probably in very similar ways to almost any other creative endeavor. It's very much of the time that it's in.
Dylan Carnahan:When you, given that you kind of have these two perspectives, right, about kind of how, you know, where you were, how you were taught, and kind of how things are differently, is there anything that you think is kind of missing between that transfer with all this technology?
Debbie Millman:I worry a little bit about soul. You can generally get a sense of a maker in well-crafted things. I don't see that as much in AI-generated design, photography, art. I don't know that I would even consider art that's generated in with artificial intelligence art because I kind of feel that you need soul to have art. But these are all things that I'm still thinking a great deal about. And so I don't know that I could say that that's a definite fully formed opinion yet, but it's where I'm heading, I think. Although I do really take advantage of AI, I use ChatGPT more like in the ways that I was using Google, more as a research tool than a making tool, because I do feel that the times that I have attempted to make something with ChatGPT, it has felt very surface level and very soulless. And it might just be because I'm not using it in the right way, or maybe I'm not giving it the right prompts or giving it the right sort of foundation. But for right now, it's more of a research tool for me than it is a making tool for me.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, that's understandable. I think one of the things personally I always notice with generate stuff is it feels very symmetrical, right? There's a lack of text.
Debbie Millman:Yes.
Dylan Carnahan:And there's no asymmetry. I don't know how to impart that. That's the best way.
Debbie Millman:That's exactly the right. I agree with you 100 percent, and I don't know that I could articulate that any better. I think that that is exactly what I feel too. There's nothing that gives me any tension in it that I want. And I think that asymmetry is the better word for that tension that I'm trying to describe.
Dylan Carnahan:Now, I'm going back, Debbie, to kind of the beginning of our discussion, and I'm thinking about kind of some of the preferences that you have for design. How has that changed over time for you? Your taste, if you will.
Debbie Millman:Oh, my God. When I was younger, I had terrible taste. I think that becoming better educated gives you a sense of what else might be available. A lot of my taste was based on just what I knew at that time. And then the more I learned about different styles or different designers, and I'm not talking about clothes, I'm just talking about in general, it really opened my mind as to what was possible, what was available, what was in the world that I just didn't know that I didn't know. And I think it's even a matter of learning about any topic. You go to a museum and you learn about a new artist and your mind is blown because suddenly you see things in a different way, or you see possibilities that you never saw before, or once you understand what somebody like Jackson Pollock was doing, it no longer looks like just a splattered mess. And you kind of bristle when somebody says, my kid could make that because you know that the kid couldn't actually make that with the same intention and with the same craft and the same intellectual foundation that he had in making it. There's this wonderful moment in the Jackson Pollock movie with Ed Harris and Marsha Gay Hardin, where she is, she plays Lee Krasner, his wife, and she's looking at this breakthrough that he's had in making a splatter painting. And I think I'm going to paraphrase this wrong, but she says something like, I think you're on to something. You know, and it was this moment, this breakthrough, this realization, that suddenly you've made something that nobody has made quite in the same way before, with a very deep intellectual intention, that other people, if exposed to that information, realizes revolutionary. That's a beautiful moment for anyone.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, you know, exposure is such an important thing. Right? And that's one of the reasons I hope people can take that way from this conversation, right? This is exposing you to different topics. I guess, what advice do you have for people aspiring to get into the world of design?
Debbie Millman:Read and experience as much as you can. Design is a vast discipline that includes fashion and interiors and graphics and brands and landscape. And I mean, there's so many different layers of design. And the wonderful thing about design is that it's not about cost or luxury. It's about craft. And you can find craft at every level for every one of those disciplines. And the more you learn, I think the more you appreciate how design both informs and inspires our lives and how much good design can change your life.
Dylan Carnahan:That's very well put. Debbie, how can people learn more about you and the work you do?
Debbie Millman:Well, I do a lot of different things. I have a podcast where I talk a lot about design of all sorts. It's called Design Matters. And that's been going now for 20 years. So I have hundreds and hundreds of episodes with all sorts of creative people. I would say at this point, many of the world's most creative people have come on the show and talked about how they make and create meaning. And my website, debbimillman.com, that's also where you can find me on Instagram, Debbie Millman, and wherever fine books are sold.
Dylan Carnahan:Debbie, I've really appreciated you coming on, and I'm grateful for the conversation. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and time today.
Debbie Millman:Dylan, thank you for this very, very wonderful interview. You've asked a lot of hard questions. It took me a little bit of time to be able to answer you in the way that I felt you deserved with these very insightful questions. So I hope that I was able to provide responses that will be helpful to your audience.
Dylan Carnahan:No, I think you did that very well.
Debbie Millman:Thank you. Thank you. It was a bit challenging at times, having to be very clear about what I think about things, but that's good.
Dylan Carnahan:That wraps up our conversation with Debbie. We talked about AI-generated design, how taste evolves over time, and actual advice for aspiring designers. Go to this episode's show notes to see any resources Debbie mentioned during our episode. And lastly, subscribe to the Simple Questions Podcast to get notified when our latest episodes are released. Thank you for listening, and remember to keep asking questions.