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What Is Peppermint OS?
Shane Remington • 2025-09-02
Dylan Carnahan:Welcome to the Simple Questions Podcast. This is your host, Dylan Carnahan. The question for this episode is, what is Peppermint OS? You will learn in this episode how open-source software differs from traditional software, what it took to create Peppermint OS, and why community support is vital for the future of Linux projects. Our guest is the co-founder of Peppermint OS. Led the Peppermint 5 release, pushing the projects Fast, Secure, and Everywhere Vision, and secured vps.net sponsorship in 2010 via a grassroots social push, which kept the project online during its early surge. I introduce to you Shane Remington. It is late 2021 when I find my old 2012 MacBook Pro, that had fallen victim to planned obsolescence. Meaning, it was not really working very well. It was very slow. It was cumbersome. I didn't really have many things on it. And at that point, I tried to figure out, how can I use this, what I thought was a very quality device, very hardy. I enjoyed its keyboard and things like that. And that's when I stumbled upon, hey, I can download a new operating system, and I can download a Linux-based operating system. And that's when I went down the rabbit hole of different Linux distributions, and I came across something called Peppermint OS. And so, that led me to go, what is open source software even? Really, what is Linux? And questions like that came to mind. So that's kind of my early, but not that early exposure. But I'm curious, Shane, how did you first learn about open source software?
Shane Remington:That's a really good question. You know, I didn't initially start in software. I was, I had a couple other careers before that. I was a chef as my first career, a lot of cooking, and then it was my chiropractor that said, hey, is there anything you can do just as well as cooking? That's not cooking, is there? I was like, well, you know, I dabble around in web development and things like that. So that's kind of what got me started. But I had already been, I was like a closet nerd anyway, growing up. And I grew up with Commodore 64. In fact, me and my friend, one of my good friends, and like, we were like probably like eight or 10 years old, we would go to the mall. There was like a Sears in there. And they had the first Commodore 64 set up. And we would go in there and like, no one was, nobody knew what to do with them. But we would go in there and plink around and kind of play around and get into the backend of it. And then, oddly enough, we stole the manual for the Commodore 64 and put it in our backpack and went home and we memorized all these different codes and then went back to the mall and locked the Commodore 64 out of control so the salespeople couldn't get into it. And we would like run like weird programs that your names and weird things would like fly across the screen, just stupid kid stuff. But honestly, that's where it got started for me was in software. And this may sound weird too, but the movie War Games. OK, I remember seeing that and I was like, that's me. That's who I am. You know, I don't even know if the word hacker is going to use back then. But anyway, I was like, this is what I want to do. And so I was using like Amiga machines after that. And really doing like pre-internet work on BBS systems, bulletin board systems where you would dial in servers onto someone's server and everyone would dial in at the same time and you could have chat rooms and things like that. So it was like, like I said, pre-internet. And that's really where I got started and really where I got exposed to open source was through FOSS, F-O-S-S, Free Open Source Software, and just introduced all sorts of people who were on these creating open source FOSS programs for Amiga, Apple and other OSs. So that was my early exposure to it. So I've kind of always been around it for a long time, but I didn't really understand the importance of it until like out of college, when you're watching Apple and Macintosh, Google come to the rise and you're like, oh, now I, okay, okay, there's something different here. This is like community driven and that's really what it's about. Is it always free? Not necessarily. I mean, people have to make money, but these are community driven projects that some are very small, some are some of hundreds of developers that work on them. So it's just, it's very cool. And it feels like you're like really involved with something that a lot of people aren't, which may be some of the allure to it as well. I think that as younger, that was the allure for me too.
Dylan Carnahan:That's very interesting as a whole, unconventional. But again, it's kind of your intuition and you kind of enjoy this. And I'm curious, Shane, you know, always there's a distinction when you know, to really commit a lot of time and to create like your own Linux distro. I mean, that's, this is, it's one thing to look at a manual and kind of play around. Can you kind of elaborate how you make that commitment?
Shane Remington:I made a commitment to like a software project like Peppermint? Okay. Well, here's how it happened. I'll, we'll start there. It's kind of funny, because it also happened around the same time with the chiropractor. I was like, is there anything else you can do? And I was like, I'm just going to go back into development. I'm going to start cutting my chops. I'll go back to the forums. I'm going to learn these different things, start getting my Kung Fu ready and stuff. And I had a job. I eventually got a job with a software company that does point of sale software. And I was traveling around the country quite a bit. So it was like away a lot and then back on the weekends. And then the town that I lived in, Hendersonville, North Carolina at the time, I was just sitting at the bar between one of my trips. I was there for the weekend. And this guy walks up to me. He's like, Hey, my name is Kendall. I was like, Oh, hey, Kendall. He's like, I know you don't know me really well, but we're friends so and so and so and so. And you know, my friend Rachel said that I should come say hey to you because we're in a lot of the same stuff. And I was like, Oh, cool. Yeah, sit down. So we had like a pint of Guinness together. And we just got talking about my job and what I was doing. And I had mentioned to him that we had created this forum for point of sale administrators and for a scan text using barcode symbologies and stuff. And so we were trying to support each other. And so we created a forum and we were experimenting with a couple of Linux distributions to do some of the work. And he was like, wait, really? I was like, yeah, why? He's like, I'm doing package maintenance for Linux Mint and some other projects. I was like, no way, get out of here. And really, that's how it started, was just a conversation. We just hit it off about Linux. It's that you don't run into Linux users very often. And so we ended up, we set up the bar probably, I mean, we closed it down. It was like two, three in the morning. And what it really started was like, it was like, what about Linux? Like, do you like, like, what don't you like about it? Because it seemed like that's where we hit on the topic was like, what don't we like about Linux community? Because we had beefs about different parts of it. Like, I didn't like that it was very unwelcome to newcomers. And we started getting in the forums, a little bit trolling and that kind of thing, and just kind of punching down on people who don't understand or come from a different starting point. And that was my big beef with it. And then Kendall, of course, was like, yeah, the community says it's a community, but really when it gets down to it, it's not, and different things. And through that conversation, he was like, we should just make our own operating system. I was like, oh, oh, okay. And it kind of, and I was so excited about it that I actually didn't go to bed. I went home and I went on to my domain registrar and I bought peppermintos.com. And is that really like, we're going to do this. Like I'm not messing around. But when I saw Kendall the next day, I was like, hey Kendall, I bought the domain. He's like, for what? Peppermint. The operating system is like, oh, we're really doing it. I was like, well, yeah, I thought we were doing it. That's honestly how it started. And Kendall's like, I'll talk to you on Monday. He's that kind of guy. He's like, you don't see Kendall. And Kendall had the first Peppermint build done like Sunday evening in like two days.
Dylan Carnahan:Wow.
Shane Remington:He's a smart guy, I can tell you that. So we had the first glimpse of what Peppermint could be. And really, we had to build on that. And I think the idea was, from the conversations we had, is like, number one, it was about community. Like, man, let's make one that's based around community. Let's make sure everyone's welcome. And not only that, let's make a user experience that is very, very familiar for new users to understand. And that was a big part of it too. What did you know? Hey, I've got this one distro that's like, I don't even remember what it's called. I think it was called Black Box. It was literally just black, which I kind of dig. Kendall dug it as a super nerd, but it's like, that's not something you can give to your parents to learn Linux operating system or to even trust one. So there's all those barriers to entry, right? Make things kind of strange. So it needs to be familiar. And Kendall was like, as much as I don't like Microsoft, Windows XP is just a very familiar layout. Like when it came out as very clean, navigation on the bottom, start menu on the left, clock on the right, and things started to mimic that. And that's where we were like, you know what? I bet if we had a Linux operating system that, not trying to copy Windows, but like make just things super familiar, don't hide things, make them easy to work, let's set our sites right there and do everything that's super small because there's so many people sitting around with laptops piling up in the closet or they go in the landfill. And it's like, man, if we get something super stripped down, that's easy to understand, that you can drop on to anything, that's really what we're going for.
Dylan Carnahan:There's a lot of passion in your voice, Shane, as well as throughout that story. Like it's very empathetic, right? Like as you're saying, like you brought up like your parents and the perspective of someone that's a newcomer. And with that in mind, you know, there are going to be some people that are listening to Shane and they're going to go, I don't understand even like what Linux is. So could you again for that welcoming, you know, for that welcome for that new user, like what is a Linux based operating system? Just generally. I understand that's a huge, that's a whole different question.
Shane Remington:Well, the answer should be is that it's an operating system just like Windows or just like OS, you know, for Apple, you should be able to just open it up and use it. It's just made under a different, built on top of a different code base than the others use. And I also think when you talk, when you explain that to people and then you, you know, maybe they've been Mac users their whole lives and you're like, what is OS, blah, blah, blah? They don't like really understand that it was like built on top of like FreeBSD back in the day. That's where it was started. So really it, it really was an open source kernel that, you know, Mac OS was built on. So really at its core of the Apple, no pun intended, it is.
Dylan Carnahan:So within that, embedded within that, we have kind of this topic that we've referenced too, which is just open source, right? And can, what, you know, how do we make the distinction between open source software and just software in general? Like you mentioned Mac OS or something, or Windows.
Shane Remington:Sure. So, you know, you know, Windows is owned by Microsoft obviously, and that is a proprietary software that, you know, like when you, whenever you open up a fresh Windows machine or something like that, or even, you know, Microsoft Word for the first time, there's the EULA that you have to agree to their terms and conditions is that, you know, this corporation owns the software, which means it's closed. You're not going to really be able to make any changes to it, repackage it, redistribute it. They have licensing and the ownership over the software. So when you hear people say open source, you know, it's normally, you know, this is the base software that we've given. The source is open. You're able to take that code, use it openly. Maybe you can not redistribute it or sell it as such, but you are welcome to make modifications to it, use it in the way that you want to, or join our project and our community and contribute to that project itself.
Dylan Carnahan:That's very interesting. I'm sure that that may be a new concept to some people. Yeah, definitely. And you mentioned too, you go back, you said, hey, like the basis of Mac OS, there was, you know, it was built on top of, you know, open source. Can you elaborate on that?
Shane Remington:Well, that was, that came as a surprise to me. I think it was Kendall that pointed it out. Like even then, I didn't know. And really, when you talk about Peppermint itself, like the kernel and everything that was built, that was a Kendall thing. You know, I'm not an OS developer in any way, but, you know, he's the one who explained to me, you know, I believe it was BSD, which is the code base that Mac was built on as an operating system. I was like, wow, I had absolutely no idea that that was the starting point for Mac OS.
Dylan Carnahan:No, that's that's very interesting. Something I didn't know until this conversation. So I heard of you listening.
Shane Remington:If I'm wrong, and if I'm not explaining it right, do not do not look me up on social media and beat me up. But anyway, it was just a very, you know, looking at open source software and that way, I guess a lot of folks, when you talk about software, they also, you know, they have hardware wrapped to it. Like this is an iPhone and the iPhone does this, but they really don't understand, like the layers of software that run on top of the bare metal that make this iPhone what it is and makes it work. And that's when Kendall was talking about building a brand new operating system. I was like, whoa, I mean, I was like, we're in deep water here. Let's not do this. And so it was very exciting for me, very exciting for him. So, yeah.
Dylan Carnahan:How, you know, you talked about kind of this, this initial creation and it sounded like, you know, the iteration or initial idea, like, you know, it was very fast paced. How do things evolve from that point?
Shane Remington:So, you know, I was explaining earlier, we wanted to make it very open and accessible, not only the community, but for anybody to use. So he and I sat down, honestly, with pencil and paper and kind of, you know, just whiteboard it out on drawing paper at the bar. This is how it should look. This should be here. This should be here. This is the color scheme. This is what we're going to do. These are the software packages we want to make sure that are available when it comes open out of the box. And let's think about it from, like, the normal user. Like, what would I give my mom? What would I give my kids? And Ken was like, that's a really good point. And I was like, I bet, I said, let's do this. Let's get Peppermint, like, up and running to where it's, like, it's ready for release, to where it's ready to go. And before we release it, let's let my kids look at it. And let's let your sister look at it. And let's just put it in front of them. Don't even tell them what it is. Just boot it up and just say, hey, can you do these things on this machine? And, you know, my two kids, we had a computer lab in our house. We had like two or three machines there, and they could even like half-dead ones, they could take apart and put back together again. And so we put it on a couple machines and we're like, here you go. And they're like, okay. And they're like, bam, they're like, like without even asking, that they like knew where the web browser was. And they were off on their way, like, oh, here are the games. And they started playing the games. And it was like, okay, we're, okay, we got it, you know. If my kids can pick it up, if your sister can pick it up, if your mom can open it up and start doing your day-to-day activities, you know, that's a home run, especially, you know, when, you know, we're coming into a time at that point, because this was quite a few years ago, everything was, you know, web-based, Web 2.0 or whatever. And so most things were web-based. And, you know, even on your, you know, your phone, everything was powered by the web. So if you had that experience wrapped up, 95% of everybody that's going to use it, that's what they're going to use it for anyway. And it's the other tertiary tools that they pick up later.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, I think the little joke is that like most people, their laptop or computer is a bootloader for Google Chrome.
Shane Remington:Yes, it is. And really that was the idea. And, you know, you say that, but it's true. And like, as we got into more the development of Peppermint and what it was going to be, you know, when we first launched, we had talked to a bunch of different people, since we knew people in the Linux community, and we let those people try, like, God, I cannot wait for you guys to launch. This is going to be incredible at the time. So when we did, oh, well, dial it back a little bit. You know, social media had just become kind of like, like a thing, you know, more prominently. I was like, like a very early adopter of Twitter and things like that. And we're like, look, we need to be more, you know, let's have a social media presence so we can be reachable at all times about it. So people can actually talk to us, the community can be in touch with us at all times. Let's not hide behind the keyboard. Let's be out in front of it. Let's just do things differently. You know, it's still open source. It's still Linux. But what it doesn't need to be stodgy. It doesn't need to be hidden away. It should be out in front of it. Honestly, it should be competing with Apple. It should be competing with Chrome and Google. And it should be out there very in the front. And that's how we just treated it. We're going to treat it this way. We're going to talk about it that way. We're going to promote it that way. We're going to market it that way. And we're going to do all these things. And it's going to be free for the people forever. And that really was the mission right there.
Dylan Carnahan:No, that's a very well thought out and grounded mission. Can you talk about kind of the development of the community? Right? Because again, you're two guys at a bar. Next thing you know, you're moving. And now, there's a community involvement.
Shane Remington:Yeah, it moved at absolute light speed. I mean, we had, it was me and Kendall, and then there's another developer, Ike Doherty. Ike, if you're watching this, hello. He's another mastermind that came from Linux Mint and from some other distros. Serpent OS is his current project, if you want to check that out. So we had spun up everything. We had a server ready. We were going to let people download it by BitTorrent or directly from the server, a couple of different things. And when we launched, we had put out a, I actually wrote a press release, dated, very professional. I'm a pretty good writer, so I did press release, but I knew how to write one properly. And I submitted it to the AP Newswater, and among some other things, and the AP Newswater picked it up, and just picked it up, sent me a couple of emails, asked a few questions. Next thing you know, this thing is like, it's in like all the big papers, or a lot of big Metro papers, maybe even if it's just a paragraph, which we were like, wow, we have some superpower, that's really cool. And the weekend that it launched, within, I mean, less than 24 hours, the server, the hosting service that we were on, called us and told us that we had to shut it down, because it was just draining too much, like we had to upgrade to like a full server, which was like a couple grand a month, and we were both like, bro, I don't, what, like, are you kidding me? I mean, we were all excited, like, hey, this is going bananas, and it turned out to bite us in the butt, and we didn't know what to do, we were going to get shut down, and they extended it for 48 hours. And so this, we had just launched, we had launched like in less than 24 hours. So we were like, oh my God, that's great because it's getting like a bunch of attention. Two, we're like, we don't know what to do. So we just started, we just got on social media on Twitter. I mean, you know, Kendall and I had pretty decent following ourselves. I mean, you know, decent following, maybe like 5,000 or something like that at the time. We started like, you know, hey, we really need help if anyone's listening to us. So we had that going across my channel, his on the Peppermint, you know, Twitter and other and just like, hey, if anyone's out there can give us a hand, if you can donate for the software, that's great. We really just needed for to take care of this. And oddly enough, a CEO of a very prominent web hosting service in England called me on the phone. I was like, this is who I am, I'm the CEO. I think this is fantastic. You're on our server network. We're just going to write you guys off as our project to make you and sponsor you guys. We were like, what? So this all happened in less than 40 hours. So they migrated us over. We didn't even lift a finger like, okay, we're just going to migrate you over here. Now, you're on the self-healing cloud server. We're like, oh my God, this is so awesome. So it went very, very quick. We had built a forum into the website, just like an old school forum. Immediately, it was blown up. We could barely keep up with all the questions, all the comments. It was very exciting. No one could be wrong. We were just like happy and scared. Look at the same time, if there's a way to be that way. So that's how the community sprouted up so quickly. We had to find people. No one had ever seen Peppermint before, except for me and Kendall and a couple of people. So we had to work with a couple of other developers we knew, who looked at it and they're like, hey, we're just going to join your forum to give you guys a hand. So it really grew from that point forward.
Dylan Carnahan:Throughout this whole story, Shane, it's almost like a combination of windfalls. However, there are certain things within this that require a lot of foresight, for example, to go, hey, I'm going to write a press release and hey, I'm going to shop this around. I mean, that's very well thought out at the same time.
Shane Remington:Yeah, and it's maybe something that other distros didn't think about or, and again, we weren't professionals at it, but we were like, okay, if we're going, if we want to be this thing, you have to become that thing before you even get there. You should look like it, act like it. Obviously, we believed in it. So if we believe in it, we need to act like it, walk like it, talk like it, look like it. And that was just what we were going to do with it.
Dylan Carnahan:That's very well said. I'm curious, what other challenges did you overcome when creating Peppermint?
Shane Remington:I think the growth just became a challenge in itself because we were being pulled in a lot of different directions. And of course, it's a free operating system meant to be given away for people to use. So time becomes a factor where you both have to keep full-time jobs to keep your families alive and things like that. And so you get off one shift and you almost have to start a second shift immediately. So you work a lot of evenings after work, things like that. So Kendall and I seem to have just boundless energy. I mean, he and I are just like, I don't know. Well, a lot younger than two. So we just sped off that energy. I mean, for a long time, it was like years of just feeding off that momentum of the energy that was behind it. Not that we were doing anything significant with the software itself, but because of the community we built around it and then the community making demands on you with the software. What I mean by demands is like, you're really good ideas and things like that. Like, hey, if you guys try this and do this and different things. So there's constant development. It's not one of those things where you like, I invent a baseball bat and I can use the same baseball bat every day. You have to constantly improve on the software. There's always things. People find bugs. It's just, it's a real live living organism that needs to be fed like at all times, to be honest about it. It's like having another kid.
Dylan Carnahan:So this child that people are finding out that it has, you know, bugs and that maybe, you know, throwing out new ideas and functionality, you know, how has Peppermint evolved over the years?
Shane Remington:So like I explained earlier about just its base, let's make it open, easy to use. Let's get it stripped down so it fires up incredibly fast. Like there's no waiting around. When it turns off, it doesn't have a boot down sequence. It's like 30 seconds, you know, because things were very, very clunky back then. I think that's improved a lot across most software, but at the time things could get really bad. And so that was our next mission is to, okay, it's our mission to get all of these laptops and old machines out of the landfill, back onto people's desks. And we started really pushing that hard. And then we started hearing from parents going, thank God I found you guys. I mean, you know, we spend this money on, you know, these machines for my kids, and they're like, they're like on their deathbed, but you put Peppermint on it. And it's like, it's a brand new machine, like immediately, as you were talking about your Mac. And that right there gave us a new life, you know, we were like, okay, see, now we're on to something. You know, we're not only, you know, giving away free and home and people, we're keeping things out of the landfill. You know, you should be able to extend the life of that machine. I mean, maybe indefinitely until it actually breaks down. So that really was the goal is just to make sure, like after like the community was like, let's make sure this thing is like super streamlined, super small, can fit on the head of the pin. I can put it anywhere. And then I would say like, one of the bit, one of the great, amazing memories about that was we got a call from Africa. There is a guy there who opened up a bunch of Internet cafes. They would pull machines out of landfill or donations, and they would build these Franken machines, like I had, that's what I used. But they would build them together so kids could learn Internet skills. And they used Peppermint and like three or four of these different centers to train like all the kids on. That right there is like, is worth everything to me and to the team. It was like a very, very proud moment that it was being used in that way, you know.
Dylan Carnahan:When you reflect on these memories and you talk about some of the social good, like the story you just told or like, hey, there's less waste. And again, to see kind of this thing that you created that people are adopting that, how does that feel, Shane?
Shane Remington:I mean, it feels great. It feels very gratifying. You know, after a few years of anything, you know, like you get kind of burned out, I, you know, eventually that was starting to happen to Kendall and I, you know, it just starts to take its toll after so many years. I mean, thank God we had like really good people in the community who were helping us, one being Mark Greaves, who sadly passed away a few years ago and actually took Peppermint, you know, from Kendall and I, we turned over the project to him. He took it, you know, further for a few years until he passed away. And now there's a whole brand new team, Tommy and his folks who run Peppermint OS now. So it's still going. It's like seeing your kid go to kindergarten and then, you know, graduate and then go on to college. It's like, that's really how you feel. And especially when you're reading a magazine or something, you see your income up or it's like, it's just a very, very proud moment that this idea continues to like live on today and is still being used.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah. I mean, that's it. I think there's something definitely special about taking an idea and bring it to fruition. And again, given everything that you've done, what advice do you have for future generations regarding the creation of operating systems or open-source software as a whole?
Shane Remington:I would say the main thing is don't be afraid to do it. If that's something you want to do, just do it. Just pick it up and do it. The hardest step is the first step. But it's something that you should really take. And I think it would have been easy for Kendall and I to meet at the bar and like, I don't know this guy, why would I? I mean, these are all crazy ideas, but I mean, we both could have easily said, that was pretty funny and like kind of went on, but we didn't. And when we both figured out that we didn't realize that we were both really into it and didn't expect each other to be into it, which is kind of funny. But just feeding off that energy and doing things, just with people because you should do them. Not that you have to do them, but you just want to is a very powerful thing. And I think that would be a really good message to young people. Like, if you want to get started in software, whether it's operating system development, web development, regardless of what it is, the best possible thing you can do is work with other people. Just come up with an idea and hack it out, figure it out. I didn't go to school for it. Kendall didn't go to school for it. We had no proper training. We were both self-taught through forums and trial and error, and staying up all night, just breaking things and trying to fix them again, and really, that's what you should be doing. Find something that needs to be solved and fix it.
Dylan Carnahan:What a great message. That's a very good message. Thanks, man. And yeah, I think there's so many, there's a lot of great things to take away from what you've done. And again, I really appreciate hearing the passion in your voice. How can the community support your ongoing and future endeavors?
Shane Remington:So like I said, the Peppermint has, Kendall and I just eventually had to give that up, and it's taking hands of different leadership. So if you've never seen Linux operating system before, yeah, you should check one out. You should, and if you can't figure it out and it looks too challenging, that's even more of a reason to look at it anyway. You know, you can dual boot Linux on an existing Mac OS. That's something that you may want to do. That would be a fun weekend project. It's like, hey, how do I spin up a virtual machine on my Mac and have Linux running in another window? That's a great place to start because you're not actually going to lose what you have. You can experience it on the same machine. That would be a good place to start. But really, you should just support open-source software, like graphic designers. I encourage you to look at GIMP, which I've been using. It's on my Mac right here. I've been using GIMP forever, which is, I'm not sure if you're familiar with GIMP, but it's like a Photoshop kind of clone, but I love it. So just find those things. And if you like it, send these guys some money. Send them a couple bucks. I mean, Peppermint was able to keep afloat and with like dollar donations from people. Literally, like a dollar makes a difference. All those little dollars add up. So don't ever think it's, you know, I'm doing too little, you know, for these projects. Give a buck, give them a good review on their site, right? Say something nice about people. It's a really good thing to do too.
Dylan Carnahan:Very well said, and I do appreciate kind of you referencing like the, like, you know, Linux distros, you can use a bootable USB. It doesn't mean you have to, you know, rip Windows 11 off your computer or Mac OS. You know, the barrier to entry is lower than you would expect. And as you're saying, there's kind of a journey of discovery and maybe a weekend project right there.
Shane Remington:Yep, exactly. Just don't be afraid to try and break things.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, that's a great message. Shane, thank you for sharing your time and knowledge today, sir.
Shane Remington:Thanks, I appreciate having you. It's been a lot of fun.
Dylan Carnahan:That wraps up our conversation with Shane. We talked about how to build buzz around a new tech startup, real challenges of launching a Linux operating system, and why open-source software cuts down on eWaste. Go to this episode show notes to see any resources Shane mentioned during our episode. Lastly, subscribe to the Simple Questions Podcast to get notified when our latest episodes are released. Thank you for listening, and remember to keep asking questions.