← Back to all episodes
What Is The Enneagram?
Susan Piver • 2023-11-05
Dylan Carnahan:Welcome to the Simple Questions Podcast. This is your host, Dylan Carnahan. The question for this episode is, what is the enneagram? You will learn in this episode, the enneagram typing system, how the enneagram can help you with your relationships, and how you can apply the enneagram to your daily life. Our guest has been a student of Buddhism since 1995, is a New York Times bestselling author of nine books, including The Buddhist Enneagram, Nine Paths to Warriorship, and launched the Open Heart Project, which is the world's largest online only meditation center. I introduce to you, Susan Piver. I am standing in my closet, looking desperately for something to wear to a board game night that my brother invited me to. He has a handful of friends that are gonna be there whom I've never really met before. I'm trying desperately to figure out what to put on. I decide to put on an anime shirt and a watch. Two things I typically do not wear. I go to this board game night, talking to my brother's friends, and I would say maybe an hour into the board game night, my brother's friend, Nirav, mentions that I am an enneagram three, which is something I have never heard of. And I am full of questions. Many of the questions he answered, I still didn't quite understand. And he mentioned that this was something he learned during his time as a monk. So he tells me this. It wouldn't be until later that night, I do some more investigative work as to what this is. And that eventually leads me to read the Buddhist Enneagram. So that's kind of how my first exposure to the Enneagram, and I was curious, Susan, what initially drew you to the Enneagram?
Susan Piver:Well, it was not an anime t-shirt or wearing a watch, but I really love those details. And also before we get into that, Nirav, my friend, how do you know? Dylan's a three. It's not a good idea to tell other people what type they are because we don't really know. We don't really know. And so we don't want to make nine boxes out of the Enneagram. So, but bless your heart, Nirav. I'm sure that, I mean, maybe you're right. I don't know. It's been many, many years that I've been interested in the Enneagram. And I think I read a book like in 1993 or something called The Enneagram by a woman named Helen Palmer. And I just remember thinking, as I did when I first started reading about Buddhism, well, this explains a lot. And this answers a lot of questions that I have that I've not found answers elsewhere. So I just became immediately interested and tried, started to read whatever I could get my hands on, which at the time was not very much.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, and that's similar to my journey. You kind of have a first exposure to that. And it is. There are some things in there that are very revealing. And you kind of have a natural curiosity to kind of learn more and that continues to grow. Susan, it's one thing to read a book, all right? It's another thing to write one. So I'm curious what inspired you to write the Buddhist Enneagram.
Susan Piver:Thank you for asking. Well, I am a Buddhist teacher and I have written other books and I've been studying Buddhism and the Enneagram to get side by side for many years, decades even. And I realized, but I never taught the Enneagram, but I realized at a certain point that all the Buddhist teachings on compassion and wakefulness and discipline and generosity and all the things that are sort of counseled on the Buddhist path came alive when I looked at them through the lens of the Enneagram. I saw how to do them for me. And especially when it comes to compassion for myself and others, the Enneagram was like a primer on how to understand yourself and others in a very deep way that creates a lot of space for everyone to be who they are. So it seemed, oh, well, I use these two things together. And I would like to share how that has been beneficial. So I just started writing about it. That's why.
Dylan Carnahan:Again, natural kind of curiosity you enjoy. You see the value, right? You mentioned through the lens of the Enneagram, how that helped you. And so you wanted to share that.
Susan Piver:Exactly.
Dylan Carnahan:Now we've been mentioning the Enneagram several times here, but can you briefly explain what the Enneagram is for those who are unfamiliar?
Susan Piver:Absolutely. So ennea, E-N-N-E-A is the Greek prefix for nine. And the Enneagram describes nine ways of being, which is the way I prefer to describe it as opposed to nine personality types, because personality type is ultimately superficial, but your being that is sort of covered by your personality is anything but superficial. And the Enneagram describes nine ways of being in the world, nine systems of wiring, you could say. Nine different things get the nine types attention. There are nine avoidances, nine idealizations, nine talking styles even. And it's the Enneagram, as far as I can tell, and again, it's been many, many years, is a kind of perfect blueprint of your wiring, including what you would rather not see about yourself, which if you want to know what's in your blind spot, the Enneagram will tell you. If you don't want to know, respect, I get, I get. I'm not wanting to know, but it's a very deep view of your essence. And each of us is one of the nine. So it's not like, oh, and this one on this day and that one at that other time in my life, you are one of these numbers, which makes it additionally fascinating, I think. Does that sound right to you? Does that make sense?
Dylan Carnahan:No, no, it does. Can you elaborate? So we are one Enneagram number, correct? However, we do move. Can you discuss that?
Susan Piver:Yes, again. So the nine types are divided into three groups of three. There are many subdivisions within the Enneagram according to Center of Intelligence. So that's a place to start. Eight, nine and one are called the intuitive triad. Two, three and four, the emotional triad. Five, six and seven, the mental triad. And they refer to these three forms of intelligence. You have all three, I have all three. But for you and for me, one of them is predominant. And then if you notice the Enneagram diagram, there are lines connecting the different numbers. And those lines indicate journeys of integration and disintegration. Now there's value in both integrating and disintegrating. So you don't move to another number, but if you're seven, let's say, which maybe you are, I don't know. Asnerov, I'm just kidding about that. Then when things are, am I right about this? Seven, let's pick eight. Eight, when eights become super confident in who they are, they integrate at the number two. They take on the high qualities of this other number two. And when they go to their natural defenses and those defenses fail, they sink through the bottom of their eightness and disintegrate at the number five. So they don't become a five, but they take on those qualities on bad days. And fives, however, integrate at eight. So they take on the good qualities of eight when things are going well. So it's an interconnected circle of numbers, but you are only one. I know people really don't want that. It feels like a trap, but it isn't. It's extremely liberating to figure out who you are.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, no, it definitely is. When, I wanna clarify, I'm just gonna, we'll talk about this a little bit here, which is when you hear disintegrate or disintegrate, that does not sound very positive. I'm gonna be honest with you, Susan. So can you talk about how maybe that's beneficial that you go to a different number rather than integrating?
Susan Piver:Well, Dylan, we don't really know each other, but my guess is that you have had very hard moments in your life where your ideas fell apart, your dreams crashed. What you thought did not happen, was going to happen, did not happen, and you didn't like it. So at those moments, when our world disintegrates, there is also a chance to see something fresh, to go beyond your traps, your ideas, your comfort zone to stretch who you are and what you're capable of. So the Enneagram calls that dissolving or disintegrating. But every wisdom tradition in the world, as far as I know, also says that is something in the letting go that comes with suffering that brings grace. So disintegrating doesn't feel as good as integrating, but it has power.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Well said, I think there's a pattern break, if you will.
Susan Piver:Yeah, good way of saying it.
Dylan Carnahan:Right, you know, if everything was going right the whole time, you may not grow as a person. You know, so you need a pattern break. Sometimes you need to go backward. And maybe when you go backward, you see things from a different angle. You gain new perspective. There's a freshness there, right?
Susan Piver:I think that's beautifully said. Yes, that's exactly right. And also just in Buddhism, by the way, and I'm a practice in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, there are deities that indicate different energies. They're not like gods in a theistic sense. Anyway, sometimes the deity of compassion, let's say, appears in iconography in a peaceful form, beautiful wings and clouds and everything's, oh yeah, I really like to be with that energy. But the same deity of compassion also is depicted in what is called the wrathful form, with claws and anger and it's still compassion. Manifesting, oh, with kindness and sweetness and gentleness when that is appropriate or with anger and just definite point of view and absolutely not when that is called for. They're both compassion. So the integration points and disintegration points in my Buddhisty view are introductions to what for you is the peaceful compassion form that you're particularly good at and the wrathful form that you also may be very good at.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, I think some of us maybe need to tap into that wrathful compassion when putting up a boundary.
Susan Piver:Boom, yeah, there's a lot effed up right now. And compassion is not like, oh, well, it's okay. I'm sure it's all for the best. No, BS. Sometimes there's a fight to be fought, but when we fight it with aggression rather than compassion, we add to the darkness. It's all order. I can't do it, but I aspire to it.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, it's not exactly easy. You mentioned earlier about how the lens through, which you can look at things with the enneagram has been beneficial. How has the enneagram impacted your life?
Susan Piver:Thank you for that question. Well, on the enneagram, I am a number four. And I'll just give you a brief example of, so I have, I'm lucky, I am a lucky person just in general in life. I have friends, I have friends who I really love, but I've also lost friends who wonder why I'm not more present in their life. And they're right, to wonder that. And I wondered it too. Why am I not a better friend? I really care. And I feel a lot of love. And why is it okay with me to go months, weeks, years without talking? But I still feel like we're friends. Anyway, I realized when I realized that I am a four, and there's a kind of, that my gift as a friend is not to be a buddy, or like, hey, how you doing? Let's go hang out. I don't enjoy that. I just don't. And for a long time, I thought, oh, there's something wrong with me. I should enjoy that. But when I saw that I was a four, and that my gift of friendship was standing with you when bleep hits the fan, if you're being born or dying, or your heart is broken, call me, because I can stand with you in those moments. And that's my gift as a friend. I'm not saying it's a better gift or a worse gift, but I started to let myself off the hook for not being the hey, let's hang out kind of person that I'm never gonna be, and instead to be who I am. So it helped me in that way quite a lot. It's also, I've been married for a long ass time, 25 years, and it helped me, it has helped me so much to understand my own way of communicating and my preferences about having intense communications, and my partners, who is different, not a 401. And for a long time, I thought, why is he angry? Why, but he did not feel that he was angry. He felt that he was sharp and intense and speaking clearly and directly. Anyway, it just helped me to let us both off the hook. Because when I saw what he did through the lens of my own personality, if I talked that way, it wouldn't mean I was angry. Therefore, you must be angry. I missed him completely. So it's been of inexpressible value in all of my relationships, particularly marriage.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, it definitely sounds like the Enneagram has added a sense of awareness to your relationships.
Susan Piver:I really can't imagine one day without it, and I use it every day of my life in everything I do. It's just there. At this point, it's there. And it comes into play throughout every day of my life. I'm not exaggerating.
Dylan Carnahan:And yeah, that must provide a great sense of relief, right? You have a better understanding of yourself rather than just kind of critiquing yourself. As you mentioned with your relationship with your friends, right? You may think less of yourself, but once you're aware, you kind of see how you fit that.
Susan Piver:Exactly. And that brings us back to one of your first questions, which is Buddhism. Why write about these things together? Because in the Buddhist view, as well as just the common sense normal view, compassion for others is not possible without compassion for yourself. And compassion for yourself isn't like, oh yeah, I guess you're okay, or oh, poor you, you're a victim. No. Compassion for yourself means accepting yourself, feeling, flowing with yourself as you are without trying to fix or change. I mean, we all have things we need to fix and change, but that's not compassion. Without that, I accept myself, I know myself, my willingness to accept you and know you very, very limited. So in this sense, the enneagram is a perfect adjunct to spiritual practice that is meant to generate compassion, which is basically all spiritual practice.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, that's true. I mean, you really only know others as well as you know yourself.
Susan Piver:The more shut down you are to yourself, the more shut down you are to others. Because who you are is big, really big, hard to see, and full of brilliance and flaws and chaos and genius, period. The more you can see of your own breadth, the more spacious you can be with others. I'm not making this up. This is my experience. I mean, it's not a theory.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, and you've mentioned earlier, then again now, there is a part of yourself that you can see that's not necessarily positive. Seriously, yeah.
Susan Piver:Yeah, so let's say you're a three, who knows? Each type has a idealization and an avoidance. The idealization for three is I am successful. Good, everybody wants to be successful. But threes are likely to interpret everything that happens as a success, even when it really isn't. And so there's a blindness to gray. The avoidance for three is failure. Nobody likes to fail, obviously, but threes will go a long, long distance to avoid noticing that they have failed at something. And of course, we all fail at things. So when you can see that you're actually gonna lie to yourself about what is a success and what is a failure, well, that's really important to know that that could happen. So let's stop lying. You know what happens if we stop lying? I don't know if I answered what you were saying because I sort of started to ramble there a little bit.
Dylan Carnahan:No, I mean, it makes sense that understanding maybe your flaws, we'll put it that way. Understanding your flaws would help you improve upon those or basically simply being aware of that would be beneficial. I mean, if there was a devious or bad actor behind you, someone that's dangerous, it might be best to look at them and know that they're there.
Susan Piver:They're there, beautifully said. So another small example, and as a four, because I am a four, I feel more confident with these examples. The idealization of four is I am special. The avoidance is ordinariness. That's really different than success and failure. So as a four, and I'm speaking for personal experience, when I start to feel like nobody sees how special I am, and I don't think I'm special, but nobody sees me for who I am, which is a very common, many people feel that, but fours live in that. The world, I'm an outsider to the whole world. Sometimes that's true. But when I feel that really strongly, I can now also stop and go, wait a minute, that's my red flag, that something happened that has upset me. And it may be true that I'm a good outsider, but it may not. But that's how I start to see things when I'm really under stress. So let me take a beat and just question, what's upsetting me right now? Not does the world think I'm special or not. So they're red flags. These are nine red flags that help you wake up to your patterns by which you explain things that are not true.
Dylan Carnahan:Your enneagram type is your paradigm, your default narrative, if you will.
Susan Piver:Exactly, totally, 100%. Yeah, and when you know that narrative, it's useful. Sometimes it's true, which makes it complicated. But most often, it is not.
Dylan Carnahan:As you're saying, yeah, there may be a actual situation in where your uniqueness is not being valued. However, that's usually your default state, or I guess when you start to feel that imbalance and start to feel that way, it's, as you've said, a red flag. Hey, I need to kind of assess what's going on here because this feeling is starting to come.
Susan Piver:Exactly, I see that even when it's not there. It's dangerous.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah. Definitely be important to pick up on that. You're kind of a victim to that if you don't know, right?
Susan Piver:Yes. And then your friends, they have this too. It's not right to type other people. We don't really know. But you can start to see, oh, my friend is falling into their trap of three, or their trap of seven, or their trap of six, whatever it is. Let me not just go, well, what's your problem? Or let me just see, oh, this is a wiring thing that they encounter over and over again. And I wish for their relief.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah. And even if you're aware of that, there is still kind of a struggle there, right? Doesn't immediately alleviate everything. Susan, you didn't go, hey, I'm a four. And then it was just smooth sailing.
Susan Piver:And then all the four disappeared. No, that did not happen. That is helpful to know. I found it enormously helpful.
Dylan Carnahan:Well, I know that you talk about this a little bit in your book, but what do we know about the history of the enneagram?
Susan Piver:Yeah, that's such a good question. It's such a hilarious question because basically not very much. So you just cut me off on going on too long here, but there are people who say that the enneagram comes from, I don't know, the Middle East, you know, 5,000 years ago, maybe, but I know there's no evidence of that. When I first started studying it in the 90s, there was, everybody said, oh, well, it's come from Sufism, the mystical tradition of Islam. But there's really not a lot of evidence that that's so either. And I've asked, I've gone very far to try to find the answer to this question, including talking to Sufi sheikhs and really investigating. I can't find, I, Susan Pyre cannot find the evidence, so that's all I know. Doesn't mean there is no evidence, it means I can't find it. What is known about the Enneagram is that the first person to ever discuss it in recorded history was a Greek Armenian mystic named Gurdjieff. And he taught it to his students in like 30s, 40s, 50s, I think, something like that, as a system of understanding the natural cycles of life and death, not as a system of personality typing. And then fast forward to like the late 60s or something, some dude named Oskar Ichazo, I don't mean that disrespectfully. I mean, he was a guy who just wrote down the Enneagram that we study now, that Neuroph studied, that the books are written about. He's like, yeah, somebody, yeah, I downloaded it from some celestial source. I have no idea what that means, whatever. Then one of his students, also South American, a psychiatrist and great teacher who passed away a few years ago named Claudio Naranjo, became a professor at UC Berkeley and started teaching the Enneagram to his students in the mid late 70s, as he had studied it from Oscar Ichazo. And he told his students, you can't write this down, because this view, this body of knowledge is so powerful, it can be used to manipulate people, and it can. So it can only be transmitted orally, teacher to student, which is how wisdom traditions have operated for thousands of years. But they ignored him, and people wrote it down. And here we are. So Claudio added a tremendous amount to the canon of knowledge about the enneagram. I don't know where he got it from, but he is, I think, the truest enneagram teacher of our basic lifetime, and now deceased. That's it, that's what we know. And I went to his house once to ask him, where does the enneagram come from? I wrote about this in the book. I made up some reason that I was going to be in his neighborhood. I live in Boston, he lives in Berkeley. I'm going to be in your neighborhood. And I asked him, where does it come from? And he really did not give me a straight answer. And so anyway, I have my ideas, but I don't really know is the real true answer. I do not know. You know, it's not attributed to anyone, which to me makes it way more trustworthy and weird and cool.
Dylan Carnahan:It does. Thank you for your honesty. First off, it would be easy to just attribute it, right? Isn't that the safe answer? Oh, it's this person or oh, you know, we heard it, you know.
Susan Piver:Yeah, it's never safer to lie. Although I get why people were like, yeah, I read this. It must be true, therefore, I'm gonna repeat it. Yeah, we see where that gets us.
Dylan Carnahan:What makes the Enneagram stand out from other personality typing systems?
Susan Piver:It is so many things. It is not prescriptive. Most systems, and some of them are very, very valuable, and I love all of them basically, say, well, here's your problem, and here's how to fix it. Here's how you can become better in relationships or at work or, okay, good. The Enneagram is no such thing. It's not prescriptive. It is not a psychological system, that if you fix these things about yourself, you'll be better. It's a way of going beyond the confines of personality to see a larger source of wisdom. I don't mean anything religious by that. It's huge. It's huge and unbelievably nuanced and unknowable, ultimately, and without the confinements that come with a lineage or someone who developed it, there's no one. So it's a vast, free-floating body of knowledge that you can use as you like. So I'm a Buddhist teacher, I'm a meditation teacher, and mindfulness is an interesting corollary because if you want to use mindfulness, quote unquote, to get a better night's sleep or to feel less stress or to, I don't know what, reduce activity in the right prefrontal cortex or the left, whichever one is good, yeah, mindfulness will help you, it will. But if you want to liberate yourself from suffering for all time and become fully awake, same practice. So the enneagram is very similar. If you want to use it to be, have better relationships, get along better with people, be a better communicator, totally will do that. If you want to use it to love with all of your heart, beyond any boundary, and to see other people clearly for the purposes of bringing more joy and compassion to the world, whether it helps you or not, it will do that too. Can't say the same about Myers-Briggs or the Cold Views or Strength Finders or these other systems. And I love all of those I mentioned, even astrology, but they're different.
Dylan Carnahan:And you're really highlighting the scale and the complexity of the enneagram, which is of immense value.
Susan Piver:Exactly right. That's exactly right. And the nuance, it's unbelievably nuanced.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, and the more familiar you get with the enneagram, as you said, there are different ways to apply it within relationships, personally. And that just kind of furthers, I guess, the scale of it, right? Because as you said too, there is a large portion of that around accepting yourself, which I don't know if, again, many of those things have the same level of depth.
Susan Piver:That's a really good point. That is a really good point. As far as I know, Meyers-Briggs or Strength Finders, again, I love them. They don't say, just accept yourself as you are and all the doors of your life will open. The Enneagram does say that. I mean, they don't not say that. It's helpful to know you're an INFP or whatever, but only as that works prescriptively.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, I would agree. I think with the Meyers-Briggs, there's less of an identity, I guess, surrounding that, like I said, more prescriptive. Okay, I know what the I is intuitive or whatever the case may be. You could kind of decode it and get something out of it. Whereas I think there's a lot more, I guess, robustness to that paradigm of a seven or an eight rather than simply an INTJ, just being again, like this decoded kind of understanding of what that means.
Susan Piver:I think that's right. It's like Meyers-Briggs is like a sledgehammer and the enneagram is like a drone, you just see everything.
Dylan Carnahan:Well, you obviously know you're a four, Susan. So how do you recommend readers determine their enneagram type?
Susan Piver:So the first step is to acknowledge and own that all the tests are bad. There's no test. So just deal with that. That's, sadly, there's just no great test. If you want to know your Myers-Briggs, they got a test. Take it. They'll give you an answer that's probably correct. There's no equivalent in the enneagram. However, there are many tests. So the first step, I would say, is take all of them. Take all the free tests you can. If you're a billionaire, take all the paid tests, too. But just take all the free tests and then start to see, usually two or three numbers will surface in different orders in various tests. So let's say you take 10 tests and use the numbers 2, 3, and let's see what's a good one to pick here. 2, 3, and 8. Okay, 8 is in, then start to look at the three centers of intelligence within the enneagram. 8, 9, and 1 are centered on the intelligence of intuition, instinct. That may be you. 2, 3, and 4, emotion. 5, 6, and 7, mental intelligence. So 8, 2, and 3 are here. Okay, 8 is in the intuitive triad. 2 and 3 are both in the emotional triad. Okay, let's start with the emotional, because 2 of the 3 numbers are there. So those are data points. Then set all of that aside. And the next step, first step, take all the tests. Second step, consider the centers of intelligence. Third step, and this is where it gets complicated. And if people like complicated things, they'd be very happy right now. Look at what in the enneagram is called subtype. There are 9 types. And within each of the 9 types, there are 3 subtypes. So there are 3 kinds of 2, 3 kinds of 3, 3 kinds of 8, and so on. And the reason I suggest this is because it is usually easier for people to find their subtype, which I'm going to explain in a second, than their type. So for example, so the subtypes, and there are 3, but they're different than the 3 centers of intelligence. The 3 subtypes refer to the 3 instinctual drives that all beings share. For each of us, one of them is strongest. The first drive that we all have is for self-preservation. Don't want to be killed. Don't want to be homeless. Don't want to be under threat. We want to protect our lives. It's obvious, and I think that needs explanation. The second drive that we all share is called the social drive. I want to belong somewhere. I want to find my place in the tribe, in the herd, in the world, whether it's a neighborhood or a political party or whatever it is. And one third of us are wired for that to be the predominant concern. Where do I fit? Not, is someone trying to kill me? The third drive, sexual drive or intimate drive, isn't just about wanting to have sex. It's wanting to connect with somebody else, one to one, in the various circumstances of your life. It seems that we're wired for all three of these things. And for each of us, one of them is strongest. So just very briefly, if the three subtypes, as they're called, self-preservation, social, sexual, are going to a... Where did you say you're going in your T-shirt and your watch?
Dylan Carnahan:Board game night.
Susan Piver:Board game night. Let's say they're all three going to board game night, and they've never been there before. The self-preservation subtype person, whether they're a four or a seven or a two, will be thinking, what if the room's too cold? I better bring a jacket. Or what if they don't have snacks? I better bring something I like to eat, or what if they only serve this kind of beer and I only like that kind of beer? Just, you know, what is going to affect my physical person? Oh, those are reasonable concerns. The social subtype person, again, whatever their type is, will be wondering, how's this going to go? How many people are going to be there? Well, I like them. Well, they like me. Are we going to sit all around? We play the same game? Or are we going to have different? How is this going to work, you know, as a little mini society? And do I feel good about that? And then the sexual subtype person will be thinking, well, is there going to be someone there who I can vibe with? Who will get me? And who I can get? And then we can share this experience. So those are all three really reasonable things to think about. Which one do you think you are?
Dylan Carnahan:I think the social. I think the social one of those. And that is such a good way to find that because it's true. Going anywhere, you do have those initial questions, I guess, anxieties that kind of rise up. And I think that's such a great way to put it because you can really pick out which of those often, more often than the others comes to mind.
Susan Piver:It's easier to find your subtype than your type. So if your friend says you're a three, then okay. Read about social three. Don't read about self-preservation three or sexual three. Self-preservation three is called security. Self-preservation three is called prestige. Sexual three is called masculine or feminine ideal, or it should just be called gender, non-gender ideal, whatever you identify it with. So those are three different things. So I'm a self-preservation four. And I never would have pegged myself as a four, because I'm like, oh, tragic, romantic or drama king, queen. I didn't resonate with that. But as soon as I read about self-preservation four, like, that's me. But I know I skipped over four for like a year. I thought it was an A. But as soon as I combine the type and the subtype, I got it.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah. And just as that self-preservation four was hidden from you, you know, those subtypes really do make a profound difference on the emphasis of that type, as you hint to kind of go on with the three theme there. I mean, yeah. You know, achievement based around prestige is a lot different than, you know, self-preservation.
Susan Piver:Yeah, self-preservation three, security, wants the success just as all threes do, but so that they can feel safe. Social three, prestige, wants all the success that any three wants so they can appear in societal environments to be powerful and strong. And so that's different than, I got my house, I got my degrees, you know, no one's going to take those things from me. So self-preservation four is called reckless. That was me when I was young. Just crazy shit. Excuse my language. Please believe me if you need it. Social three is called shame. All the fours want to be special. Self-preservation four is like, well, no one's ever going to see me, so I might as well just kamikaze my way through this life. Try to wake up through dangerous actions. That was a bad idea. I don't recommend it. Social three is like, the group that I want to be a part of is never going to see me, so I'm perpetually ashamed. I can't get in there. And sexual three is called hate, which is I'm no one's ever going to see me, and I'm not going to get that heart connection that I want, and I'm angry. So I'm going to push. Those are really different fours. And until you know the subtype, it's very hard to find the type. That's my philosophy. So take all the tests, find your center of intelligence, find your subtype, go from there.
Dylan Carnahan:Well said. And I think too, if this is one of your first times hearing about the enneagram, I would take those steps. I would take those and run with that. As well as, yeah, it's understandable if you start to hear kind of the subtypes and you start thinking about how that applies to the enneagram as a whole, that becomes quite a bit to bite off. I would say just start out with the steps Susan provided there. Now, we've talked a little bit about the relationships and how the enneagram can impact that. We haven't talked so much about, say, personally. So the enneagram often highlights areas for personal development. How can your readers practically apply the insights from your book in their daily lives?
Susan Piver:Good question. So many ways to answer it, and it's so individual. And I think it all hinges on self-knowledge, knowing yourself, and then making adjustments, micro or macro adjustments, in your everyday life, to make room for yourself. So to me, the enneagram is extremely practical. I know as a four, I'm very sensitive to environment. And like really like, I don't like that color red, I need it to be slightly different. Okay, not to poo poo myself and go and not to become too persnickety, obviously, or prissy about it. But yeah, environment really affects me. So let me take extra care to order things. So that to me, they appear beautiful. Whether they do to anyone else or not, I don't care. And let me take myself seriously. So much suffering comes from not taking yourself seriously or taking yourself too seriously. But mostly, we don't take ourselves seriously at all. And our world has told us, who do you think you are? And, you know, the other people are more important. Or when you're a great person, you won't think of yourself. That's absurd. That's absurd. Can you love yourself and your life and make room for yourself to become who you are meant to be? I know it doesn't sound very practical, but the Enneagram says, here's how, here's a blueprint. Take these steps. Know that when this issue comes up, it's a red flag that you're suffering. Know that when your inclination is to retreat and everyone else's is to move forward, that you're just honoring your own natural patterns or vice versa. It's very, in the moment, helpful.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, well, I applaud you for answering that question because it is difficult. It is a difficult question to answer because if your paradigm is that of an enneagram nine and you're aware of it, how that impacts your daily life is going to manifest itself dependent upon everything, the situation, whether it be the social or physical, right? And so, as you put it, giving yourself the space and inviting that in and understanding that, that's how that's going to impact your daily life.
Susan Piver:Absolutely. And nine, by the way, is a great example because nines are most often the kind of people that move in a circular fashion. They don't move from point A to point B. They move in a circle. And they say, oh, wait, what's your point here? Why are you talking about all these 50 things at once? Okay, that's how they do it. And if you try to force them to, well, what do you mean? Is it a yes or a no? You're not going to get anyone. So, oh, I see. Okay, you're a nine. You're going to go in a circular way. Let me just put down what I'm doing, make some time. I'll just go in a circle with you and eventually we'll get there. But I cannot change you into doing it the way I want you to do it. Nines particularly have difficulty with others. I mean, everybody does, but because they are so nonlinear and there's so little understanding for that nonlinearity. Anyway, that's just an aside, but that is practical in my life. So I'm not a nine, but I have great friends who are nine. So it helps me to be a better friend to them and to be more engaged on a deep level with them when I know, oh, you're not going to give me a yes or a no to my question. I'm going to start rambling. And let me find a way to enjoy that unless I'm impatient and in a hurry, and I'll tell you. I had to do this later.
Dylan Carnahan:And that takes quite a bit of empathy to do that.
Susan Piver:That's the compassion case right there. Absolutely. Compassion isn't like being a saint or like, oh, I love all beings. It's feeling people where they are in time and space and going with them. It's not just feeling them or not, but just knowing who they are, opening to them and then making your decisions about what you want to do.
Dylan Carnahan:That's such a great way of putting that. Because I think, yeah, there is that inherent desire to maybe just change. Like you said, hey, maybe I give a goal in mind or this is my best interest. I'm just going to, I wish things were different. And I think maybe that's, maybe Dylan Lee Carnahan is just projecting my internal kind of struggle out on other people when you say that.
Susan Piver:And you have every right to want things to go the way you would like them to go. But other people have their right for that too. And until harm is being done, which quite a bit is being done, the more you can open, compassion has almost nothing to do with being nice, by the way. That's a huge misunderstanding. It has everything to do with being awake. It's seeing. Which can invoke all sorts of feelings, nice, un-nice. But compassion has more to do with being awake than being nice.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, I think that's such a misconception.
Susan Piver:I do, too.
Dylan Carnahan:We just automatically, compassion is just some bubbly, nice person. Yeah, some sweet kind. Which is so more dynamic than that.
Susan Piver:It's so much more dynamic than that. Absolutely right. And interesting and beautiful and complex and powerful. Nice, nice.
Dylan Carnahan:Are there any misconceptions about the enneagram that you aim to clarify in your book?
Susan Piver:Mm-hmm. I think the biggest misconception is that there's a test. I mean, that's, is that somebody else can tell you who you are. Nobody can tell you who you are. And then the other misconception is that you can change your number. You can't, according to the system. This is who you are. And so people get freaked out by that. But I'm like, well, Dylan L. Carnahan, where were you born? Were you born in Central time? Kansas. Okay. So Kansas. So you will never not be from Kansas. But you can go live anywhere you want. And you can be anyone you want. But you will never not be from Kansas. And it's really helpful to know. I'm from Kansas. It has this impact and this meaning. I'm not limited, except by my blindness to that. So the enneagram is the same. I'm a four. I'm not going to not be a four, but I can go anywhere I want around the circle.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, and I think that, I think also there's, because of maybe the level of permanence of going, I am this type, once you've identified that. That can be scary, right? So it might be a nice falsehood to lean into, right? Especially when you look at some of those scarier, negative qualities of that type, and you start reading those, you go, well, maybe I'm another type, you know? Or yeah, I feel like that would be definitely an instance that you might lean into that falsehood.
Susan Piver:I agree. It's scary to be a human being. It's scary to be alive. It's scary to figure out who you really are. But what else are you gonna do? Pretend? So can you be brave and kind? The Enneagram says, yes, here's nine ways to be brave and kind.
Dylan Carnahan:What are some challenges you've faced while working on yourself using the enneagram?
Susan Piver:I think the biggest challenge I face is, I believe my own BS. And the flavor of, particular for flavor of BS is that, I'm nothing, my life is nothing, no one's ever gonna know me. I mean, a lot of people feel those things, but fours travel with those as regular companions. I'm perpetually outside of whatever. And I believe that, and it's not true. But I really believe it is. And so I construct my life and my day and my language around things that are not true. I can make a case that they're true, but they're really, you can make a case that they're not. So what do you believe that actually is not true? It's really hard to stop believing those things.
Dylan Carnahan:It is, and stories are very powerful. Stories are very powerful. And if you're selling yourself a story and maybe you didn't even know it for so many years, right? You're unaware. And even when you do gain awareness, there's still some things you could be missing and it's still a powerful story, perhaps.
Susan Piver:Absolutely, all of that, what you just said, I agree. The stories are really hard to see around and they seem so true. Sometimes they are, but often they're not. They're default screens that your system just defaults to, you know, in a vacuum. And I have a real lot of trouble not doing that default screen.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, it's very difficult, but once you do see that flag, that pop-up, so to speak, something pops up, you had your default screen, you get a pop-up, you go, oh, this is what's going on.
Susan Piver:Exactly.
Dylan Carnahan:You regain a sense of autonomy outside of that narrative.
Susan Piver:Exactly, that is a really good way of saying it. And Bernie personally, and I'm a meditation teacher, so I find that meditation is very, very helpful in this regard because it doesn't change or fix anything, but it creates some ability to see what is happening without trying to mess with it. Let me just be aware. OK, now I see this thing that's happening. Let me not try to fix it or react to it. So meditation creates space between what arises and what you do. And in that space, you know, all things are possible. Without that space, no things are possible. You just get on the ride again.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, you just fall into that natural pattern and off you go. Yeah, that's very powerful, that awareness is very powerful. It's everything. What do you hope readers will take away from your book after reading it?
Susan Piver:Self-acceptance, kindness towards himself and others. I know that sounds cliché, but that really is my hope is that the enneagram will give you yourself back, minus all of the, it's the right word, the self-criticism that comes from other voices, not your own.
Dylan Carnahan:You That's a very powerful statement.
Susan Piver:Be good, wouldn't it?
Dylan Carnahan:That was good, that was good.
Susan Piver:I mean, it would be good if I would, when that happens, it's good. The Enneagram helps.
Dylan Carnahan:Wow, this has been a fantastic conversation, Susan. I'm so glad that we got to talk. What can people do to learn more about you and your work?
Susan Piver:Well, they can learn that it's really enjoyable to talk to you about their work. So thank you for this conversation, too. I enjoyed it a lot. And my website, I have an online community called the Open Heart Project. Or if you just Google my name, Susan Piver, it will go to Open Heart Project. And that's where my books and the classes I teach and the retreats I lead and the online, it's mostly online, the online gatherings, even before COVID, it was online. That's where all the information is.
Dylan Carnahan:Well, we will make sure that all of that is included in the show notes for our listeners to go check out.
Susan Piver:Wonderful.
Dylan Carnahan:Again, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and time today.
Susan Piver:Thank you, too. It was a joy to talk with you. I appreciate it.
Dylan Carnahan:That wraps up our conversation with Susan. We talked about the impact the Enneagram can have on your life, Enneagram subtypes, and how to find your Enneagram type. If you're interested, Susan has a meditation retreat coming up this month, which you can sign up for at her website. How do you know what her website is? Well, go to this episode's show notes to see any resources Susan mentioned during our episode. And lastly, subscribe to the Simple Questions Podcast to get notified when our latest episodes are released. Thank you for listening, and remember to keep asking questions.