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What Was The Pine Tar Game?
George Frazier • 2021-12-07
Dylan Carnahan:Welcome back to the Simple Questions Podcast. I'm your host, Dylan Carnahan. That was Strange Weather Lovers by Jakobins. That is spelled J-A-K-O-B-I-N-S. The band consists of Joe Buhlens and Brett Pippen. Strange Weather Lovers is a song off of the recently released album, Dead Sea Drinkers. Make sure to check them out on all streaming platforms and find more information on them in the show notes for this episode. The question for this episode is, what was the pine tar game? A few things that you'll learn in this episode are the rivalry between the Royals and the Yankees in the early 1980s, the events surrounding the game, and what happened in the game. Before we get into our guest, let me give you a brief account of the pine tar game. On July 24th, 1983, the Kansas City Royals are playing the New York Yankees at Yankee Stadium. The Yankees are leading four to three in the top of the ninth inning. George Brett comes up to bat. Brett hits a two run homer to give the Royals a five to four lead. Pretty straightforward so far. Well, no it's not because Brett is called out. Upon the request of Yankees manager Billy Martin, the umpires inspect Brett's bat for having an excessive amount of pine tar. For those of you that don't know, pine tar is a sticky substance that baseball players use to grip objects better. The umpires decide to call Brett out and the homerun is said not to count because of the illegal bat Brett used. Chaos and controversy ensues. This call is eventually overturned by the American league president and the game has to be resumed on August 18th at the point after Brett had hit his two run homer. Our guest was the Yankees pitcher who threw in the resumption of the ninth inning for the Yankees in the pine tar game. He played 10 seasons in the MLB, having played for the St. Louis Cardinals, New York Yankees, Cleveland Indians, Chicago Cubs, and Minnesota Twins. He is a World Series champion, having led the 1987 Minnesota Twins to win a World Series. He has over 20 years of broadcasting experience, announcing for the Twins, Rockies, and the Big 12 Baseball Championship. My former pitching coach, ladies and gentlemen, George Frazier. Thank you. Well, George, it's awesome to have you on here. I know that your journey started in Springfield, Missouri. Can you tell us a little bit about how your baseball career began?
George Frazier:Well, I think everybody played little league baseball back then. And I think, you know, I played American Legion baseball because I got cut three years in a row from my high school team. So I never made my high school team till I was a senior. I really didn't even try out then. The coach came and said he wanted me to pitch. And long story short, I ended up getting drafted by the Texas Rangers out of high school. And I thought, well, maybe this is what I want to go do. So I pitched in a tournament over in Bartlesville called the Glenwidget Tournament. And there was always big teams there. So in the finals, I beat Rick Sutcliffe, the Kansas City guy. I beat him one-nothing in the finals. And I came out in the parking lot. And Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State all offered me baseball scholarships. So I started thinking about it, you know, this is July. I've already graduated. So I thought about it. I said, all right, I'll go to Oklahoma. So I went down to OU and I ended up out of that. Obviously, four times we went to the World Series four times, college World Series, won the big 12, four years in a row. You know, a lot of great teammates, great players. I had drafted in the ninth round out of there by Milwaukee and then the career was off and running.
Dylan Carnahan:It's quite a little stretch there. Can you talk a little bit about your time in the big leagues and kind of how long were you with the Yankees?
George Frazier:Well, you know, when I got drafted by Milwaukee, I was only there a year and a half, I think, and I got traded to the Cardinals. I went to the big leagues in 78, 79 and 80 off and on. I was up and down a lot. I never stuck and then in spring of 81, I got traded or it's actually in May of 81, I got traded to the Yankees. And so then in 81 in the fall, I was in the big leagues with them, World Series, 82, 83, played for Bob Lemon, Yogi Bear was a coach. You know, it's kind of great. Billy Martin was a manager in 83. So I mean, a lot of those things about playing for the Yankees, there's a certain way to play the game and they make sure you play it that way. And I think, you know, it's all about winning, obviously, Mr. Steinbrenner, it's all he cares about. You wear your uniform, right? Don't wear your hat backwards, all that kind of stuff, you board forward. So it kind of taught me a lot about the game, really, never stand in line at restaurants, gets best seats at shows in New York, you don't there, you go somewhere else. And I happened to go to Cleveland. And I was just like, wow, I'm stuck in Cleveland now, a team that never finishes above 500 ever. And ironically, Burt Bilevin was our number one, a guy in the Hall of Fame in Cleveland. So and then from Cleveland, I went over to the Cubs, and then at 84 playoffs, and then 86 and 7, I was with the Twins, went to the World Series. But at the time with the Yankees, I had a lot of fun. A lot of different things happened in the course with the Yankees. Playoffs in 81, I set a major league record, most strikeouts by a relief pitcher in one outing in the playoffs. So a lot of decent things went on. One thing that I participated in, it was kind of funny, everybody said, pine tar game, I didn't know you finished the game. And the ironic to that was, Brett hits the home run, and everybody files the complaint. They give us the win, they complain, they file the protest, protest is heard. They said, well, we got to finish the game now. So I think Ron Gidrey was in center, if I remember right. Don Mattingly left handed played second base. And so what Billy Martin did, he was trying to outsmart everybody. So Billy came out to ask the umpire, did you see George Brett touch first base? We had a new umpire group.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah.
George Frazier:So he thought I could catch him. Every single umpire had an affidavit from the previous umpire, stating they saw him touch first base. And it's kind of the funny side of this. Hal McCrae has made a comment that he was going to hit a home run off of me, because he was the last batter I faced. He was the only batter I faced. And I heard about it. And so I ended up striking him out on four pitches and told him, you know, whatever. So that was crazy because we played it on a Monday off day at one o'clock in the afternoon. And Steinbrenner opened the stadium up to the Bronx. Anybody wanted to come? Well, we only ended up having, I think they ended up having like eight or nine thousand people walk in to see the finish of the game. So it was a strange time, to say the least.
Dylan Carnahan:Can you, you talked earlier about, you know, the Yankees teaching how to play the game the right way. During your time there, you know, how else would you describe the Yankees organization?
George Frazier:First class, you know, back in those days, a lot of times, a lot of teams didn't fly chartered airplanes, they flew commercial. And we always chartered everywhere. You always had a roommate. You know, you got to remember, the minimum wage in 1983 was 19,000. So you had a roommate everywhere. Well, Steinbrenner didn't like the roommate. You know, this guy stays up late, this guy goes to bed early. You know, this guy like this guy gets up early and eats or whatever. So we all had our own roommates and we didn't have any roommates. So that was a deal where Steinbrenner made sure everybody got to rest, got what you're supposed to do. We flew on L-1011s, not 737s. Nobody's sitting on a row with you. All the flights were shrimp and steak and great food to eat on all the flights. That's just an example of what George always did. I mean, it was first class, no matter what you did. And you had to act that way. He didn't tolerate anybody not acting that way. So I think that's part of what you got to understand. And some people do, some people don't. But I couldn't believe, I know Steinbrenner's probably rolling over in his grave right now because I see the Yankees wearing white shoes. He hated white shoes. So I'm sure some of the stuff that's going on there now he doesn't approve of or wouldn't like. I remember we always had to have our hats on forward. You had to have a certain batting practice jersey on. You had to have a certain, if you wore a jacket, it had to be a certain jacket. You just didn't dress that way. And everywhere we went on the road, it was coat and tie. Everybody had to be in a coat and tie. So you couldn't get on an airplane without a coat and tie. So the funny part was, Greg Nettles hated ties. So Greg Nettles would take and just tie a shoestring around his shirt and make it look like a bow tie. And he'd wear that on the airplane. So I got a tie on, he didn't say what kind of tie I had to have. So, you know, I mean, crazy things that went on back then. A lot of people, a lot of players. I felt fortunate because I played with Reggie Jackson, who's a Hall of Famer, Dave Winfield, a Hall of Famer, Gus Gossage, Hall of Famer. Those guys were on there. Tommy Johns should be in the Hall of Fame. Ron Gidry should be in the Hall of Fame. Don Mattingly should be in the Hall of Fame. So when you play with those kind of players all the time, you expect to win.
Dylan Carnahan:There's that standard.
George Frazier:Yeah, there is, and I thought everything with the St. Louis Cardinals could never be better. I mean, the Cardinals were the Cardinals because, you know, Stan Musial came in the locker room on a daily basis to see Stan the man who I grew up idolizing. Bob Gibson came in, he just retired two years earlier. So to see guys like Gibson come in, my locker mate was Luke Brock. To be around it, I think today's players really don't appreciate the game of what the history of the game is. And to understand probably what a lot of these guys did in the game and the difference. I'm in the Yankee locker room now, you got sushi bars, you got all this stuff, the health food everywhere, dieticians and all this stuff. You know, and I don't think they recognize, kind of like golf, you know, the newer club, the better balls, the hotter balls, the putters, everything are better now. And that's the way it is in baseball, guys, the bigger and faster, stronger. But they also have the training methods are much different. I mean, then I laughed because Hopalong Cassidy, the guy that was running back at Ohio State, was our weight and strength coach. Well, all he ever did was jump in Jackson setups. I mean, we didn't do anything. It was hilarious. I mean, we didn't lift any weights. We didn't go in and do all this strenuous stuff and Hop would come out and say, all right, we're going to stretch, we'd stretch left, right, do a couple of jumps in Jack's setups, and then we'd sit around and talk for 30 minutes, he goes, all right, we're good. And we're like, okay, Hop, see you later. So I mean, but George being from Ohio, basically just took care of Hop Longcastle. He had a job for life. Actually, they had to show him how to put a baseball uniform on, he didn't even know how to put on a uniform. So it was pretty crazy.
Dylan Carnahan:That is crazy. So during this time period, you kind of set the stage for kind of your experiences and how the Yankees were at the time. How would you describe the Royals organization in the early 80s?
George Frazier:Well, I mean, I think the same thing, just smaller market, you know. Thank God they didn't have iPhones and all that when we were playing. But you know, I think the Royals in general, you know, with Brett and Wilson and White and all the great players that they had there, Darrell Porter, the great pitchers, Dennis Leonard, all of those guys, Lee Brandt, Quisenberry, their closer. It was always great battles with the Yankees all the time. And you know, of course, the Yankees at that time were pretty good ball clubs, so they won a lot of games. And you know, it was weird because we had a big rivalry with the Red Sox, obviously, with Boston. But that rivalry became with the Royals, too, just based on what we did all the time. Because both teams were really, really good. You know, I could remember coming into the hotel in Kansas City at 2 in the morning, there'd be 400 or 500 people in the lobby just to watch us walk through. You know, they wanted to see the Yankees. I mean, it's crazy. You know, you go to the ballpark, Seattle's drawing 800 or 1,000 a game. We show up, there's 45,000 in the ballpark. So the Yankees, baseball benefited from the Yankees and how good we were and the players we had, not just in New York, but everywhere we traveled. And I think you could say the same thing about the Kansas City Royals. People want to watch George Brett play baseball.
Dylan Carnahan:And there was that rivalry, as you mentioned, kind of between the Yankees and the Royals in the early 80s.
George Frazier:Yeah, it was. You know, all the different fights that went on. Nettles and Brett at third base had a big fight one year. I think George popped up and gave him a shoulder, Nettles popped him, and the fight was on. Yeah, there was always that intense rivalry for the games. But you know what? It was like playing college football on a Saturday afternoon in front of 100,000 people. It was that way every game. And that's what made it fun for me. I loved it. I loved warming up down the left field line in that little tunnel. It sounded like you're throwing 180 miles an hour. I mean, it's great, loud pops, fans throwing beer on you over the top of it and everything. That just initiated more fire for us. And it created more. I don't think Yankee fans truly mistreated the Royals, the way the Royals fans didn't like the Yankees. Does that make sense? So that was pretty crazy.
Dylan Carnahan:And what do you mean when you say that? What makes you say that?
George Frazier:Well, I just I mean, you know, Yankee fans are Yankee fans, but they're also very appreciative of the game. They're appreciative of good players. You know, we get a bond over, they're going to stand up and clap. Not necessarily. They did when I played. That's well, the Midwest fans were always good. Don't get me wrong. Royals fans and Cardinal fans were always good fans. But there always is that dislike for certain people, certain teams. And I think because of the rivalry, you know, it's like playing Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Nebraska, Oklahoma. There was always that rivalry of everything. So and I think that's where, you know, they yell names at you and try to distract you as you're warming up, while you're going out to try to do your job at times. So and, you know, a lot of Yankee fans lived in Kansas City, too. So, I mean, we get a lot of that when we were there.
Dylan Carnahan:Can you talk a little bit about that series that ultimately ended up with, you know, that controversial Pine Tar Game? What was that series like leading up to that?
George Frazier:Well, it was, you know, that was an afternoon game. Goose came in to pitch, but, you know, I'd have to go back and look, to be honest with you, to remember how the series was going, but it was an intense series because it was late. You know, it was like, I can't remember, June or July, that we played the game. So, and then we had to come back and play the suspended part of the game later on. But you know how it all happened and how they got caught was, you can't have Pine Tar pass the width of home plate. And so, Greg Nettles had said something to Billy. And then when he did hit the home run, Billy went up to him and said, you know, get the bat measured. It can't be any wider than home plate. And sure enough, it was from the handle past that grip area. So, it was all the way up past the label on the bat. And that's actually what, one, that's what the rule states. But then they came back and said Pine Tar had no effect on the flight of the ball and all that kind of stuff. Yet they say now that Pine Tar has all the difference in being able to throw a baseball where you need to.
Dylan Carnahan:How, I guess, how knowledgeable were players about that rule at that time?
George Frazier:Oh, they didn't know anything about it. You know, I think that'll probably pull that one out of the hat. Billy had somebody look it up and then he made that decision to go ahead and create that. So, yeah, I don't think anybody was right on top of that going into it.
Dylan Carnahan:So, that was something that was brought to Billy Martin's attention. And at what point was that, you know, in the series or that particular game?
George Frazier:Well, I think it was during the series. And, you know, because Brett liked a lot of pine tar on his bat. You know, go back and look at him. He never hit with gloves. So, he would always have pine tar over his bat so he could grip the glove a little better or bat a little better. And I think somebody said something to him during the series. So, they're waiting to see, you know, if George Brett does something to beat us in the ball game, we're going to bring it to everybody's attention. And he hit the home runoff goose, high fastball at 98 miles an hour, hit it in third deck. And next thing you know, we're in a little bit of a mess, you know, or they are. Tim McClellan was home plate umpire. And, I mean, that guy's like 6'7, you know, 250 pounds. And George couldn't shove him around, but he sure was trying.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah. And how did the players and fans react when, you know, George was called out?
George Frazier:Well, the Yankee fans loved it, of course. They were excited for it. You know, he was called out, the Yankees are going to win the game. So they were extremely excited. I don't think anybody anticipated the turnaround or the change, the way it ended up happening, you know, because they just basically changed everything for everybody, because now you're going to have to come back and play the game again. I had to get the out, and I think we went three up, three down, and the game was over. So it was a quick result and a quick end on a Monday afternoon.
Dylan Carnahan:In the days after, you know, that decision was made that Brett was out, what was the media attention like?
George Frazier:Oh, it wasn't as much as you would think it was. I mean, it kind of died down after a couple of days, you know, after they went, okay, who told you this? Who told you that? Of course, Billy never revealed any of it to anybody. You know, how did this happen? How did that happen? How do you think about it? Then a ruling came out that we're going to have to play the game, you know, finish the game. So as soon as that happened, you know, they okay. And then we just waited for a date to be assigned by the league, and then we played the game out.
Dylan Carnahan:How did the clubhouse view the decision being overturned?
George Frazier:Oh, I mean, they were just like, all right, we'll just go play the game. You know, at the time, you know, this is June or July, and we're playing at August. I think August 10th was the replay of the thing. So nobody really cared. I mean, we didn't really think about it until that time when it was time to play the game again. And quite honestly, I think at that point, we were one or two back of Baltimore at the time, and Kansas City was leading their division. And, you know, honestly, we probably didn't think a whole lot about it. That was a long time ago. That's 40 years ago.
Dylan Carnahan:You know, I know that there was kind of some legal, you know, grumblings about replaying the game. How certain of you were that were you that you were going to play that day?
George Frazier:Well, I think when the league came out and said, you know, eventually at one point, they said, no, we're not going to replay the game. Then it came out and upheld the appeal. And the thing was, we weren't going to replay the whole game. We were just going to replay the third out of the inning and the top of the ninth and then for us to hit in the bottom of the ninth and go forward. And so that's kind of what, you know, what they had said. So really went into a whole lot of legality to it. I mean, Steinberg fought it a little bit, but once the league said, no, you're playing, that was kind of the end of it.
Dylan Carnahan:And going into that, resuming that game, you had mentioned kind of how the lineup was a little wonky. What was the rationale for having a starting lineup like that?
George Frazier:Well, because what happened, Omar Marino was out of the game, so we had to have a center fielder, and Gittery was probably the best center fielder we had anyway. So Gittery was the center fielder. We had to move a guy over to first, because guys had been pinch hit for. Other guys had gotten hurt. You know, they weren't on the score, because you had to go buy the scorecard from when the game was suspended to replay the game. So there was guys that had pitched the day before, couldn't pitch. There was guys that had played 7, 8, 10 days in a row, needed an off day. And quite honestly, Billy thought it was kind of a farce. We even had to play the game. So that's why he put the lineup together that way.
Dylan Carnahan:You're saying kind of the culmination of Billy seeing it as a farce in addition to you had to play that roster from that game.
George Frazier:Right. So it was just, you know, it was kind of one of those deals. I don't think Martin really wanted to play the game. Quite honestly, I don't think he wanted anything to do with it. Then as it turned out, he ended up, you know, we had to play the game. And it was like, all right, well, you guys making a mockery out of this. I'm going to make one out of it. And that's kind of what he did.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah. And what, you know, you're on the mound for the Yankees when they resumed that game. What were you told before you went out?
George Frazier:Well, they told me to go get an out. I mean, I was in actually in the bullpen and me and one other guy, I think it was David Roach were the only ones left that were eligible to pitch in the game. Everybody up because you got to go off the previous scorecard. And so the two of us were the only ones that had been eligible and I had pitched for a couple of days. So Billy just came in and said, hey, you're going to start the ballgame pitch tonight. I said, OK. And that was kind of the end of it. And I just went down to the bullpen and got loose and then came in and started again. So there was no national anthem. There was none of that because we'd already had all of that. So it's just the continuation of that ninth inning.
Dylan Carnahan:Really? So it was really just like, like you said, a continuation. There's no none of that showmanship that you get at the beginning of a baseball game.
George Frazier:No, no. So, you know, everybody just kind of jogged out to the positions. I got loose through my warm up suits, Rita McCray struck him out. And I think we came in and went one, two, three, actually. And the game was over and everybody went home. So a game that started at two, I think it was over by two thirty and everybody was on their way. They actually they bust over from Baltimore, so they were taking the bus back or train back to Baltimore because they had to play in Baltimore on Tuesday in August. So they just came up with that one deal and then turn around went right back.
Dylan Carnahan:Interesting. That was that was super brief. When when you went out there, George, I recall you throwing two throws, one to first and one to second.
George Frazier:Well, Billy wanted Billy. That's where Billy had us appeal that they didn't touch the base. And so the reason behind that, Martin knew that that umpire and crew had not seen George Brett touch the bases. So he had me appeal first. They called him safe, had me appeal second, called him safe. Billy came out, said, You never saw him touch the base and the umpire pulled out an affidavit out of his back pocket. So I think somebody had tipped the umpires or maybe they just felt like what Billy was going to do. And or somebody called, said, Are we going to have the same umpire crew too? No, you got a new umpire crew. And that's where Billy thought, Oh, well, then I'll just go out and appeal it because they didn't seem to touch the base. When reality, he already had, you know, the umpires already had a affidavit stating that they had saw him touch the base.
Dylan Carnahan:How odd is that?
George Frazier:Well, I mean, it's just, you know, who would think at all? To be honest with you, you know, I wouldn't have seen you. Who would ever think of all that stuff?
Dylan Carnahan:Now, you kind of mentioned how, you know, that that last ending wrapped up, you know, is pretty brief. You go in there, you get the strikeout and then, you know, bottom of the inning, it goes one, two, three. How much of an impact did that game have on the rest of your season? Was it just a hey, that was just nothing?
George Frazier:No, nothing. Not, you know, not really. I mean, we kind of got back into the hunt in late September. And if I remember right correctly, Baltimore won it in 83. They had four really good starting pitchers. So they ended up winning the American League East or that. Yeah, American League East at the time, because there was just an East and West, there wasn't a Central at the time. So they won, they won the division and went on to win the World Series, if I'm not mistaken, in 83. So that game had no effect on us going down the road. You know, you can always look back to a season and say, well, I mean, if we had won these two games or how did we ever lose to Cleveland? Should never lost to them. We should never lost to this team. But you can't do that. You go back and you start trying to recount the whole season and did one game have an effect on the season? I don't think that game had an effect on us.
Dylan Carnahan:When you look back kind of on your baseball career, what do you think of the Pine Tar Game?
George Frazier:Well, not just part of history. A strange game, strange history, strange part of the game, all the above. So, yeah, I mean, at the time, it was just nuts. People today, still today, from New York Times, New York Post, Daily News, about every three or four years, they'll call and, hey, you want to talk about the Pine Tar Game? And I go, not really, but I will if you need to. So, you know, we talk about it. Somebody brings it up. I know that I think, I don't know how many years ago it was. Excuse me, I did the Dan Patrick show, and he wanted to talk about the Pine Tar Game. And it was funny because when I went on air and I said, what's the matter, you couldn't get ahold of Gidrey or anybody else? And so I was doing a broadcast in Denver at the time. So, but he, yeah, he did that. And we just sat and talked about it. Yeah, I mean, people think it's something interesting in history this time of the year, and they want to want to visit about it.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah, it is a little fluky. It is a little a little weird. It's just it's interesting, you know, a World Series champ like yourself, you know, that played for all those great teams. And then you're a part of, you know, this oddity of baseball.
George Frazier:Oh, I know. It's, you know, but I think you think about it. You played in college, you understand. You went to the park and you go, how many times you sit in the dugout or down in the bullpen? You looked up and you go, well, I've never seen that before. I mean, it happens all the time. You go to the park every day. You're going to see something new every day. I mean, it's just crazy how it works. And you play the game long enough. And I was around at 13 years and then 25 years as a broadcaster. So, you know, you put all that together, 38, 40 years of this thing. I've seen a lot on the game that's strange, just like the pine tar and other things that I thought, well, yeah, that probably should have happened. So, you know, it's a crazy game. It's a fun game. I love doing it. Love being around it. And, of course, as you very well know now, one of the things I love more than anything is just helping kids out and help them further their career, whether it ends in college or whether it ends professionally. Or in high school. It doesn't really matter as long as I felt like I've helped that kid somewhere down the road or that player to become a little bit better.
Dylan Carnahan:Yeah. Well, I like to thank you for, you know, what you and Parker had done for me with my baseball career. So thank you for that. And also thank you for, you know, been willing to come on and talk about your experiences, you know, in the pine tar game.
George Frazier:Well, you know, Dylan, it was kind of fun. I'm going to address what you said. And you're more than welcome for the help I gave you. But, you know, it's all about connecting dots, getting together. Your ability was there. And I think that's one thing I see in kids. Your ability is there. Now I need to get you to trust your ability to get people out. And I think mentally, that's where I kind of convinced you, my stuff's good enough. I can do this. And you were very dedicated, driving three and a half, four hours all the way to Tulsa, Oklahoma to do it. A lot of kids aren't that way. But you were. And obviously, you know, you got a little scholarship money. You got to play college baseball. And here you are out in the real world making a good living. So those are the success stories I like to see. And as far as doing the podcast, I love doing it with you. It's been fun talking to you.
Dylan Carnahan:That wraps up our conversation with George Frazier. We talked about the Yankees' perspective of the pine tar game with someone who played in the pine tar game. We heard how the Yankees viewed the Royals at the time and learned a little bit more about what happened in one of the oddest baseball games in history. But don't forget to check out the band Jakobins and their new album, Dead Sea Drinkers, on all platforms. And lastly, subscribe to Simple Questions Podcast to get notified when our latest episodes are released. Our next episode will be about how life will be in the future. And we will discuss that with someone who's shaping that future. Thank you for listening, and remember to keep asking questions.